Director of Public Prosecutions v Chandler (a pseudonym)
[2024] VCC 2108
•19 December 2024
| IN THE COUNTY COURT OF VICTORIA | Revised Not Restricted Suitable for Publication |
AT MELBOURNE
CRIMINAL JURISDICTION
| DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS |
| v |
| GREGORY CHANDLER (a pseudonym) |
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JUDGE: | HIS HONOUR JUDGE MULLALY |
WHERE HELD: | Melbourne |
DATE OF HEARING: | 13 December 2024 |
DATE OF SENTENCE: | 19 December 2024 |
CASE MAY BE CITED AS: | DPP v Chandler (a pseudonym) |
MEDIUM NEUTRAL CITATION: | [2024] VCC 2108 |
REASONS FOR SENTENCE
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Subject: CRIMINAL LAW – SENTENCE
Catchwords: Incest; Indecent Act With a Child Under the Age of 16; Elderly Offender.
Legislation Cited: Sentencing Act 1991.
Cases Cited: Fichtner v The Queen [2019] VSCA 297; R v Verdins [2007] VSCA 62; 16 VR 269; 171 A Crim R 227; R v RLP
[2009] VSCA 271; 213 A Crim R 461; R H McL v The Queen [2000] HCA 46 - 203 CLR 452; Gregory (a pseudonym)v The Queen (2017) VSCA 151; 268 A Crim R 1; Stalio v The Queen [2012] VSCA 120, Hague v The Queen [2019] VSCA 218; Armstrong v The King [2024] VSCA 316
Sentence:Total Effective Sentence is 11 years and 10 months' imprisonment with a non-parole period of 8 years and 4 months'. Must register upon the Sex Offenders Register and remain on that register for life
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APPEARANCES: | Counsel | Solicitors |
| For the Director of Public Prosecutions | Mr A. Moore | Office of Public Prosecutions |
For the Accused | Ms M. Cox | Geelong Lawyers |
HIS HONOUR:
1Gregory Chandler[1], you have pleaded guilty to 12 charges of incest and two charges of an indecent act with a child under the age of 16. The period of time in which the offending occurred was between 1993 and January 1997. The victim of your sexual offending was your daughter. In 1993 you commenced to sexually abuse her when she was just 13 years old. The last of your offences occurred when she was 17. You were between 43 to 47 years of age at the time. You are now 76. All 12 charges of incest involved you digitally penetrating the victim's vagina. One of the charges of indecent act involved you licking her vagina at the same time as one of the digital penetrations.
[1]A pseudonym.
2The other charge of an indecent act was the rubbing of the victim's vagina as you drove her home from a party. This act was then followed by an act of digital penetration in the car which you had parked in a secluded area. The victim provided a detailed a statement to police in March of 2023. From that statement, and following your plea of guilty on arraignment on 28 October 2024, the prosecution drafted a detailed summary of the facts and circumstances of each incident where you committed incest or one of the other charges.
3The victim in her compelling victim impact statement, made it clear just how difficult she found having all the details of what she endured publicly aired in the court proceedings. I witnessed that myself during the plea. In my view, I can adequately convey what you did to her in concise terms. I will append the prosecution opening to these reasons or the relevant parts of it. What you did was to violate your daughter by digitally penetrating her in a number of rooms of the family home, but more often in her bedroom while she was on or in her bed.
4You also digitally penetrated her outside in a shed in the backyard, in a car and in the roof cavity of the home. You digitally penetrated her by first putting your hand and then your finger inside her underwear and then inside her vagina. You yourself were dressed except on one occasion when you went naked into her bedroom late at night when she was sleeping. It is clear that you exploited circumstances when she was alone in the house such as when she was home sick from school, but you also perpetrated incest when others in the family, including your wife, were somewhere in the house or on the property.
5At times you kissed the victim on the neck and other places as you were digitally penetrating her. As noted on one occasion, you simultaneously licked her vagina as you digitally penetrated her. As was put by the prosecution and conceded by your counsel, these offences constitute very serious sexual crimes that have left an enormous legacy of psychological damage on the victim. Although we in the court, and more broadly our community, have become more aware of the reality of sexual abuse in families, we still need to be vigilant, especially those in the courts, that we do not become immune to the horror of what has been done to each victim or the dreadful impact on them and others in the family.
6The final report of the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse commenced with these compelling words which I believe need to be re-stated and never forgotten. So I quote:
'The sexual abuse of a child is a terrible crime. It is the greatest of personal violations. It is perpetrated against the most vulnerable in our community. It is a fundamental breach of the trust that children are entitled to place in adults. It is one of the most traumatic and potentially damaging experiences and can have lifelong adverse consequences'.[2]
[2]Commonwealth, Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse, Final Report – Preface and Executive Summary (2017) p.5.
7Our Court of Appeal has spoken all too often of the gravity of sexual abuse of children. In Fitchener v The Queen[3], Justices Maxwell P and Kaye JA, said of sexual abuse of children, that it is:
'inherently evil and depraved. It violates the most basic norms of civilised behaviour and strikes at the heart of the value which our society places on the lives and wellbeing of each of its young persons'.[4]
[3]Fichtner v The Queen (2019) VSCA 297.
[4]Ibid [67].
8As noted, the victim composed a compelling victim impact statement. She read it during the plea, directing much of what she had to say to you, Mr Chandler. She read her victim impact statement with composure, though she was plainly very affected in doing so. A feature of her delivery was her dignity in expressing how she has finally been vindicated. I will refer to some aspects without repeating or reciting it in full or at length.
9So the victim began by making the awful observation that by your actions
'I lost my innocence and childhood'.
10She spoke of how as a teenager she would isolate herself in her room for hours. When she came out, she found herself being angry and abusive to her brothers and mother. As a reaction to what was occurring, she had intense stomach pains that saw her hospitalised multiple times, undergoing tests, scans and the like. The mental anguish of keeping your sexual abuse a secret was immense. It plagued her mental health for years and years. She wrote and I quote:
'My whole adult life has been full of self-doubt, extreme anxiety, health issues, mental issues, time off work because I couldn't face it, moving from job to job due to having so much time off and not being reliable. I have been lucky to have supportive employers over the past 15 years and not got fired due to my regular inconsistency of showing up to work. Loss of income. Fighting myself just to get out of bed, 19 to 21 were hard years getting out of bed for work were extremely difficult and I would not turn up on so many occasions. I couldn't push past what I was holding onto.
For many years, during relationships I would cry. There would be no reason, but I couldn't explain it to those I was with. I felt dirty, sick, like a slut, like I didn't deserve to have the feelings. More often than not I would end up in the shower trying to get myself clean, trying to explain to someone that I was okay and it wasn't them, it was me. Trying to accept that the feelings that I had for those I was in a relationship with was normal, despite everything I had gone through.
Over the past 18 months I have had similar feelings where I feel like I have been perpetrated and I can still smell and hear what was going on back then. Moments where night terrors and flashbacks put me right back to that time. I can hear your voice. I can smell your breath. I can physically feel you in the room. I wake up and I realise you are not in the room and haven't been, but I am so heightened I can still smell and hear you'.
11She wrote that maintaining friendships has been hard, though she paid tribute to her lifelong friend who I will call 'S' who has stood by her and supported her for years. She wrote of the great secondary pain and trauma caused by the whole process of reporting these crimes to the police and then enduring the cross-examination at the committal. Having made her complaint and statements in March 2023, she wrote of the enormous support of the police informant, Ms Jennings.
12She went on to describe subsequent periods of deterioration in her mental health. She wrote:
'In May and June of 2023, there was a turn of events that saw me seeking professional help. I was that far in a hole that I had to demand to be put in hospital. I was taken to Geelong and put in the Swanston Centre for eight days. It was a hard eight days. The thought of taking my life was real, it was planned and it was almost actioned, but somehow I was able to see what I was doing and knew that wasn't the way out. I have done nothing wrong. Why should I be feeling these feelings? Why am I the one suffering so much when I was the child? Why do I feel life is too hard? Why do I feel like things would be easier if I wasn't alive? My husband, children and friends who have been by me all this time don't deserve to feel the pain and anguish that I am going through. They don't deserve to lose their friend. After this, I was in Geelong weekly for months, paired with the Barwon Health visits and phone calls in Colac. I had doctor's visit every week, then twice weekly. The amount of medication I was taking just to get through my days was mind-boggling. I started to believe that this anxiety I was feeling was here to stay and I would have to deal with it, my chest crushing like I was in a vice or I had a brick on my chest. The shame, blame, guilt all sitting there again from putting my friends and mum through all this again.
It was hard to give evidence at the committal. The lead-up to it was tough, preparing myself for the onslaught of questions. I was stressed and worried knowing that we were facing a trial and just how hard that would be. I was worried I would feel intimidated and that I would get flustered and not be able to convey everything in the light it needed to be in. I tried to prepare myself for it as much as I could. I then had the worry and guilt of involving the witnesses and that they have to stand up and do the same thing I will be doing. The amount of pressure this all put on me was immense. I was not sleeping. I was having panic attacks and was struggling to do daily tasks'.
13She spoke of her reaction to you finally being there ultimately for the arraignment. She wrote:
'Hearing the word "guilty" said 14 times, I heard your voice say that word as each charge was read out. It broke me. I cried because it meant I wasn't lying and I could not be accused of lying anymore. I cried because I felt relief from the shame and self-blame. I cried because for the last 30 years, I have had to hold onto all these negative feelings, and maybe now the positive feelings can take over and I can start feeling happy and relieved more often'.
14She wrote of hoping to be able to be released from the shame, pain, aggression, that have plagued her life, and turn now to living and enjoying things. She concluded, like so many victims of child sexual abuse, in emphasising how she was made to feel like somehow she was to blame. She wrote:
'For twenty-plus years you were not part of my life physically, but you sure as hell were in my mind and nightmares for every single one of those years. I felt ashamed, like I had done something wrong, like I should have done more to stop it, that I should have fought and left bruises on you as proof. I felt like I didn't deserve to be happy'.
15The victim was of course entirely blameless. You, and you alone, Mr Chandler, were to blame. She was a child. You were the adult who exerted your dominance over her for your own perverse gratification. She ought not to have been made to feel any guilt or shame. Hopefully now with vindication, she can rebuild with an enormous weight now off her shoulders. This victim impact statement is confirmation of what the courts have known and the Royal Commission said that sexual abuse is one of the most traumatic and damaging experiences and it can have lifelong adverse consequences.
16I must however not be overwhelmed by the consequences of your crimes. The victim impact statement is a very important matter, but I must consider the victim impact statement among all other relevant matters that go to inform my instinctive synthesis of what is a just and appropriate sentence for your crimes. I am required by the Sentencing Act 1991 (Vic) (‘Sentencing Act’) to assess the gravity of your crimes and your moral culpability. In my assessment of the gravity of your crimes, I consider the following factors as important in revealing or establishing that these were serious examples of the sexual crimes you committed.
17First, you were the victim's father. You had a special and trusted role to protect and nurture her. You comprehensively and egregiously breached that trust. In addition, you breached the trust you owed to the victim's mother. You betrayed what your wife was entitled to expect of you as her partner and joint parent of the victim. You also breached the trust the community has that parents will nurture, protect and not use a child as a sexual object for some incomprehensible and perverse form of gratification. Thus, your conduct in a wider sense is an attack on important social values. Your punishment must be of an order to re-assert the place of decency and the true roles of a parent and a father.
18A second factor is the young age of the victim. When you commenced your vile behaviour, she was just 13. It only has to be said for the gravity of your sexual crimes to be exposed.
19Third, the victim was, as a child, vulnerable. Your exploitative conduct had the effect of destroying the victim's sense of an enjoyable, memorable childhood. As is well known in these courts, a dysfunctional childhood becomes a heavy weight that stunts the development of self-esteem. Childhood is rightly a highly valued and important time in someone's life. Your conduct deprived your daughter of a happy, innocent childhood. She said as much from the very beginning of her victim impact statement.
20Fourthly, that is a further factor, is the protracted nature of your abuse. It went on for years. As to your moral culpability, plainly it is very high. You knew what you were doing was plainly wrong, but you went ahead anyway. No right-minded member of our community could begin to understand why you would act as you did. Your conduct reveals that you have no proper sense of decent values. You put your sexual gratification above all else. What you have done reveals the self-centred and dark side of your character. Another factor that I must have regard to is the maximum term set by our Parliament for these crimes.
21In the period of your offending, the maximum term for incest was in fact 20 years' imprisonment, not 25 as set out in the prosecution opening. The maximum term increased from 1 September 1997. The maximum term for the indecent act with a child under the age of 16 in the relevant period was 10 years' imprisonment. The long maximum terms set by our Parliament reflect the abhorrence our community has for childhood sexual offending. This must be acknowledged in a balanced way in the sentence that I fix.
22As for your personal circumstances, you are, as I said, now 76. I will deal in due course with the principles of sentencing offenders of an advanced age. You were born in a small town in south west Victoria where your parents operated a dairy farm. You went to local schools until the age of 16. You then worked as a farm labourer before being conscripted to serve in the Australian Army in Vietnam. After training in Australia, you served for a year in Vietnam as a gunner. Again, I will refer later to the impact of that war service upon you. On your return to Australia, you again worked as a farm labourer before moving into truck driving, initially milk trucks and then more general farming transport in the Colac area.
23This was your own trucking business. You then contracted to transport steel from Geelong to Perth. You and your wife initially separated in 1996 and then permanently in 1999 to 2000. You have two sons as well as a victim. You have had little contact with one son, however of late there is some engagement with the other. As I understand it, they are both interstate. You continued working as a truck driver until you were assaulted by a car driver in 2018 at a stoplight. You were on WorkCover thereafter for about two and a half years. You now live on a small farm outside Colac. You have had other relationships after separating from your wife. You now have a solid relationship with another local who has been very supportive of you during the court proceedings.
24She wrote a testimonial highlighting your good qualities. Your long and hardworking life is to your credit. You have been a contributor to your community as a search and rescue volunteer. A number of neighbours and others in the community, including your last employer, all wrote and spoke well of you. I accept that you are well regarded in your community. When added to the fact that you have no prior criminal history, it enables you to call on your past good character in mitigation.
25There is a further factor that gives rise to the rare engagement of s 6(c) of the Sentencing Act which reads:
'In determining the character of an offender, the court may consider (c) any significant contributions made by the offender to the community'.
26That factor that gives rise to s 6(c) was your war service in Vietnam. That is a fact that adds significantly to your good character. Your war service has left its mark upon you. You have been diagnosed and treated by expert psychiatrists for post-traumatic stress disorder for many years. You have had a long relationship with your local general practitioner who also provides treatment for your mental health issues, including medication for depression. Your post-traumatic stress disorder is not at such a level that you are in receipt of a war pension for that reason. You are appropriately medicated now in custody I was told.
27Your counsel disavowed that you had an impaired mental functioning that enlivened any of the matters raised in the Court of Appeal decision of Verdins.[5] That said, I do not ignore that your war service has burdened you and indeed you reacted with deteriorating mental health when you were assaulted when driving trucks in 2018. Your physical health is said to be what might be expected of a man of your age. You have hearing loss. You have atrial fibrillation. That is a concern to you. Recently, while on remand, you had an episode of chest pain or atrial fibrillation. That was quickly and comprehensively dealt with by the prison authorities.
[5]R v Verdins (2007) VSCA 62; 16 VR 269; 171 A Crim R 227 (‘Verdins’)
28It is not said you have any health issues that cannot be adequately managed in prison. However, you are 76 years old. Any appropriate sentence for these serious crimes will likely take many of your remaining years. I am guided by the principles of sentencing older accused as set out in R v RLP in 2009.[6] Those principles were summarised as follows. I will only refer to old age, not ill-health. The Court of Appeal said:
'We approached the conjunction of the appellant's advanced years with these propositions in mind.
1. The age of an offender is relevant to the exercise of the sentencing discretion
2. Old age is not determinative of the quantum of sentence.
3. Depending on the circumstances, it may be appropriate to impose a minimum term which will have the effect that the offender may well spend the whole of his remaining life in custody.
4. It is a weighty consideration that the offender is likely to spend the whole or a very substantial portion of the remainder of their life in custody.
5. Other sentencing considerations may be required to surrender some ground to the need to exercise compassion to take account of the real prospect that an offender may not live to be released.
6. Just punishment, proportionality, general and specific deterrence remain primary sentencing considerations in the sentencing disposition notwithstanding the age of an offender.
7. Old age does not justify the imposition of an unacceptably inappropriate sentence'.[7]
[6]R v RLP [2009] VSCA 271; 213 A Crim R 461.
[7]Ibid [39], citing R v Bazley (1993) 65 A Crim R 154 at 158; R v Cumberbatch [2002] VSC 382; R v Smith (1987) 44 SASR 587, R v Saw [2004] VSC 117, [42]–[44]; R v Holyoak (1995) 82 A Crim R 502, 507; DPP v Kien (2000) VSC 376, [16]–[17] (Cummins J); Austin v R (1996) 87 A Crim R 570, R v Hunter (1984) 36 SASR 101; R v Yates [1985] VR 41; Crowley & Garner v R (1991) 55 A Crim R 201; R v Saw [2004] VSC 117, R v Bazley (1993) 65 A Crim R 154, 158 (Citations omitted).
29As I have referred to, you are 76. You are not at the outer limits of the elderly who are sentenced by this court for historic sexual offences. However, the necessary and stern punishment that will shortly be announced, that is, years of imprisonment, will exhaust many of your remaining years, maybe all of them. I have ensured that I have stepped back to ensure the sentence I will shortly announce takes into account this weighty consideration as is required of me. But your sentence must be just and appropriate and not inadequate simply because by the time you were brought to justice, you were in your mid-70s.
30You have pleaded guilty, but the plea was a late one. The trial was just weeks away. You ran a committal and cross-examined the victim and others. Accordingly, your sentence will be less than it otherwise would have been, but many of the benefits of an early plea have evaporated. Your plea has some utilitarian benefit. That is, you relieved the victim of giving evidence in a jury trial and saved the community the resources of that jury trial. By your plea, you have acknowledged your wrongdoing, though your acceptance remains problematic as identified in the psychological report of Mr Cummins.
31But your plea is an expression of some remorse, but as your counsel acknowledged, there is little other evidence to establish any genuine remorse. As each of your crimes warrants a sentence of imprisonment, you will become a serious sexual offender at the imposition of the sentence for Charge 3. The Sentencing Act then requires the protection of the community becomes the primary sentencing purposes. The most important practical consequence is that the presumption of concurrency is displaced by a presumption of cumulation.
32The work of the serious sexual offender provisions is to elevate the sentencing purpose of protection of the community to that of the primary sentencing purpose. Also, as I have just said, because you are a serious sexual offender, the principles of totality, cumulation and concurrency must be applied differently to you than others who are not serious offenders. Parliament's intent is expressed in the provisions of s 6E of the Sentencing Act. That is, sentences of imprisonment are to be cumulative on each other unless I otherwise order or direct.
33The tension between these provisions of the common law principle of totality have been recognised by the High Court and the Court of Appeal in Victoria. What the High Court said in R H McL v The Queen[8] and what the Court of Appeal said in Gregory v The Queen[9] have guided me in respect of ensuring that Parliament's intent is not ignored or undermined while ensuring nonetheless a proportionate overall sentence. I will not ignore the principles of totality. Likewise, and within the context and constraints of the serious offender provisions, as I said, I have paused and reconsidered the orders of cumulation and the overall sentence so as to be sure that that sentence is proportionate to your offending and meets the totality of it.
[8]R H McL v The Queen (2000) HCA 46 - 203 CLR 452.
[9]Gregory (a pseudonym) v The Queen (2017) VSCA 151; 268 A Crim R 1
34A matter set out in the Sentencing Act that I am required to have regard to is current sentencing practices. I have considered a number of Court of Appeal decisions regarding like offending, committed by like offenders, but each case is unique and to be determined on the individual circumstances of the actual offences and the actual offender. In your case, all that consideration is complicated by reason of your crime being committed in 1993 to 1996 or the beginning of 1997. The Court of Appeal decisions in Stalio[10] and Hague[11] give guidance.
[10]Stalio v The Queen (2012) VSCA 120.
[11]Hague v The Queen (2019) VSCA 218
35In the more recent decision of Hague, the Court of Appeal said the following:
'The sentencing practice that applied to offending of this kind at the time of the offence is relevant to the extent that it can be ascertained. However, just as current sentencing practices cannot control the sentencing discretion in any particular case and does not cap and collar the sentence, past practices cannot have a greater or more controlling effect'.[12]
[12]Ibid [252].
36I do not fix my sentence as if I was hypothetically imposing a sentence in 1993 or 1997 or thereabouts. My sentence must accord with current community attitudes to offending of this kind. Much has been learnt in recent years, especially about the enduring impact of sexual abuse on victims. The fixing of a non-parole period is by reference to all relevant factors and is in the end what I consider justice requires in terms of certain incarceration. I have kept in mind that you may have to do every day of your sentence, that is, the head sentence, and when you are granted parole is for others, not the court.
37It has been said many times by the Court of Appeal that there are no fixed formulas as to the ratio of the head sentence and the non-parole period. This has again been re-affirmed as of two days ago on 17 December 2024, by the Court of Appeal in Armstrong v The King.[13] Also, the Court of Appeal in that decision reiterated that there may well be higher ratios once the head sentence itself is high and appropriately so given the gravity of the offending. As to all the sentencing purposes, what is clear is that significant weight must be given to denouncing your dreadful crimes.
[13][2024] VSCA 316.
38My denunciation on behalf of the community is in order that proper and cherished values are re-asserted. The denunciation must not just be by words in these reasons for sentence, but also in the practical imposition of years of imprisonment. You must be punished by being in prison because of the deep harm you caused. Also, a very important sentencing purpose is the yet again reinforce the message of deterrence to anyone who might contemplate entering the dark realm of child sexual abuse. The message is that many years of imprisonment await.
39I have given primacy beyond Charge 2. I have given primacy to the need for protection of the community by imprisonment that operates to incapacitate you, but your rehabilitation is not overlooked, but it must yield in this case to other sentencing purposes. Doing the best I can, I impose the following sentences. I will pause and repeat the cumulation in due course.
40For Charge 1, you are sentenced to a term of imprisonment of five years and three months.
41For Charge 2, you are sentenced to a term of five years' imprisonment.
42For Charge 3, you are sentenced to a term of five years' imprisonment.
43For Charge 4, you are sentenced to a term of five years' imprisonment.
44For Charge 5, you are sentenced to a term of five years and eight months' imprisonment. That will be the base sentence.
45For Charge 6, you are sentenced to a term of five years and seven months' imprisonment.
46For Charge 7, you are sentenced to a term of three years' imprisonment.
47For Charge 8, you are sentenced to a term of five years and seven months' imprisonment.
48For Charge 9, you are sentenced to a term of five years' imprisonment.
49For Charge 10, you are sentenced to a term of five years' imprisonment.
50For Charge 11, you are sentenced to a term of five years' imprisonment.
51For Charge 12, you are sentenced to a term of nine months' imprisonment.
52For Charge 13, you are sentenced to a term of five years and six months' imprisonment.
53For Charge 14, you are sentenced to a term of five years and six months' imprisonment.
54The orders for cumulation are that five months of Charge 1, five months of Charge 2, seven months of Charge 3, seven months of Charge 4, seven months of Charge 6, three months of Charge 7, seven months of Charge 8, six months of Charge 9, six months of Charge 10, six months of Charge 11, seven months of Charge 13 and eight months of Charge 14 are cumulative upon each other and upon the base sentence of five years and eight months' imprisonment.
55Using months as the calculator, the base sentence is 68 months. The cumulation is 74 months. That gives a total of 142 months being 11 years and 10 months. So the total effective sentence is 11 years and 10 months' imprisonment and I order that you serve 8 years and 4 months' imprisonment before being eligible for parole. It has been confirmed that you have served 55 days in custody thus far. This figure having been reckoned, I now declare it is part of the sentence that I have just imposed. I will ensure that this declaration is entered into the records of the court.
56I also will enter into the records of the court that from Charge 3 onwards, you are a serious sexual offender. In addition, by operation of the Sex Offenders Register, you must register upon the Sex Offenders Register upon release and remain on that register for life.
57Had you pleaded not guilty to these offences and been found guilty of them, I would have imposed a sentence of 13 years and nine months' imprisonment with a non-parole period of 10 years and two months' imprisonment.
58Are there any other orders and can counsel confirm the mathematics of the cumulation are correct?
59MR MOORE: the cumulation appears correct to me, Your Honour. No further orders are requested.
60MS COX: Likewise, Your Honour.
61HIS HONOUR: Thank you. Anything further, Ms Cox?
62MS COX: No, Your Honour.
63HIS HONOUR: Thank you very much for the assistance of Ms O'Brien and instructors, Mr Moore and your instructors and everyone else involved in this matter. Thank you very much.
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