State of Queensland & Anor v Commonwealth of Australia

Case

[1989] HCATrans 100

No judgment structure available for this case.

IN THE HIGH COURT OF AUSTRALIA

Office of the Registry

Brisbane No B80 of 1987

B e t w e e n -

STATE OF QUEENSLAND and
ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR THE

STATE OF QUEENSLAND

Plaintiffs

and

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA

First Defendant

GRAHAM FREDERICK RICHARDSON

(who is sued in his capacity

as Minister of State for the

Arts, Sport, the Environment,

Tourism and Territories)

Second Defendant

Case stated

MASON CJ

Queensland(2)

BRENNAN J
DEANE J

DAWSON J

TOOHEY J

GAUDRON J

McHUGH J

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AT CANBERRA ON TUESDAY, 9 MAY 1989, AT 10.17 AM

Copyright in the High Court of Australia

ClT 1/1/Vlt 1 9/5/89
MR G.L. DAVIES, QC:  May it please the Court, I appear with

my learned friend, MR D.J. McGILL, for the

plaintiff. (instructed by the Crown Solicitor for

Queensland)

MR G.F. GRIFFITH, QC, Solicitor-General for the Commonwealth:

If the Court pleases, my learned friend,

MR M.E.J. BLACK, QC, and I appear with MR C.M. MAXWELL

for the defendants. (instructed by the Australian Govennent Solicitor)

MASON CJ:  Yes. Mr Davies.
MR DAVIES:  May it please the Court, may I hand up some copies

of our outline of submission?

MASON CJ:  Thank you. Yes.
MR DAVIES:  Your Honours, may we hand up some copies of the Act?

What we have done is include the amendments to the Act

but we have also left in the original provisions,

though crossed them through, so that Your Honours, if

it is thought desirable, can compare the amended

provision with the original one.

MASON CJ:  Thank you. Yes.
MR DAVIES:  Your Honours, I also hand up some books containing

some supplementary material to which we propose to

refer. The first question posed by the case stated

is whether, because and only because the property

is included in the World Heritage list, a proclamation

may be validly made in respect of the property

pursuant to section 6(3), that proclamation empowering

the prescribing of acts in relation to that property.

The second question which is posed assumes a negative

answer to the first. It asks what is the relevant

inquiry to determine the validity of the proclamation?

Your Honours will have seen from our outline that

our submissions will be that that first question should

be answered in the negative and that the second question should be

answered, we would say - our first submission - the

answer is whether the property is natural or cultural

heritage or property, the protection of which is

necessary for that. Our alternative submission is

that the answer is whether the property is capable

of being reasonably considered to be natural or

cultural heritage.

(Continued on page 3)

ClTl/2/VH 2 9/5/89
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MR DAVIES (continuing):  Your Honours, can we start with

the proposition which is received law since

the TASMANIAN DAM case that the proclamation

under section 6(3) can be justified under the

external affairs power only by reference to

the Convention for the protection of the

world cultural and natural heritage and

therefore only if it conforms to the

Convention and carries its provisions into

effect. Can I,without taking Your Honours to

it, mention the passages in the TASMANIAN DAM case

which are authority for that proposition? The

reference, Your Honours, is, of course,

(1983) 158 CLR 1 and the relevant passages

are in the judgment of Your Honour the Chi£ Justice

at pages 129 to 131, Your Honour Justice Brennan at

pages 226 and 232, and Your Honour Justice Deane

at pages 258 to 259.

We accept, of course, that that may not

be restricted to legislation which provides for

the performance of obligations which the

Convention imposes or the securing of benefits

which the Convention guarantees, but it must be

confined to the scope of the Convention and it

must carry its provisions into effect.

Your Honours, it is our submission that

except for the purpose of identification and

interim protection which is necessary while that

is being done, the scope of the Convention is

confined to property which is defined· in

articles 1 and 2, that is property which in

fact answers the description of cultural or

natural heritage. We use that- phrase in fact "answers

the descriptiorl'because it is a phrase, or similar

to a phrase, which was used by Your Honour the

Chief Justice and by Your Honour Justice Brennan

in the TASMANIAN DAM case. Could I take Your Honours

breifly to those passages in the TASMANIAN DAM

case? In the judgment of Your Honour the

Chief Justice at page 133, in the first full paragraph, Your Honour said:

(Continued on page 4)

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MR DAVIES (continuing):

Despite these features, it seems to me

that article 5 itself imposes a series

of obligations on parties to the
Convention, one of which is the

obligation dealt with in par (d)

which includes the taking of legal

measures. The imposition of this

obligation is an element in a general

framework which has as its foundation

(a) the responsibility of each State

under art 3 to identify and delineate

the different properties situated in

its territory which answer the

descriptions of "cultural heritage"

in art 1 and "natural heritage" in

art 2.

And I will not go on. Then, Your Honour

Justice Brennan at page 228, in the last

paragraph on that page said:

Although the obligation imposed by the

Convention upon a State Party with

respect to the cultural and natural

heritage situated on its territory is

expressed in general terms, once a

property answering the Convention

description of cultural heritage or

natural heritage is identified, the

primary obligation of the Party is

quite precise.

And Your Honour went on to state what the

obligation was.

Your Honours,that that is clearly riEht, in

our respectful submission, appears from the

terms of the Convention itself and can I take

Your Honours to it to indicate terms which, in

our respectful submission, show that that is so?

It is at page 22 of the book of the Act which I have handed up to Your Honours.

(Continued on page 5)

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MR DAVIES (continuing): First, Your Honours, articles 1 and 2

themselves·- the definitions, although they are

defined in terms which include an opinion that

opinion in each case involves expertise in history,

aesthetics and science and though it has no legal

significartce, Your Honours, that really seems

to have been acknowledged by the Commonwealth

in the context of the Lemonthyme Forest by the

setting up of the Helsham Commission.

Next, Your Honours, can I refer to really

a number of articles which use the terms "cultural

and natural" heritage as being:

referred to in Articles 1 and 2 and situated

on its territory -

article 4 says that. It says:

cultural and natural heritage referred to

in Articles 1 and 2 and situated on its

territory.

And others use the term "defined in articles 1 and 2".

For example, article 13.2 talks about - in the

second line -

cultural or natural property defined 1n

Articlei 1 and 2.

And others simply use the phrase "property forming part of the cultural or natural heritage". Article 11

does that - which is the one dealing with listing.

Article 11.1, Your Honours can see for example:

property forming part of the cultural and

natural heritage.

Other articles have the same phraseology, for

example articles 19 and 20 of the Convention.

Again, Your Honours will see in both of those,

"property forming part of the cultural or natural

heritage".

(Continued on page 6)

ClT4/l/AC · 5 9/5/89
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MR DAVIES (continuing):  Our point simply is that these

are objective phrases indicating that they exist

as part of cultural or natural heritage. They are

there to be identified. Which is our next point -
that articles 4 and 5 and a number of subsequent

articles, use the terms"identify", "identification"

and "delineate". I should have started with

article 3 - article 3 does that; article 4 does that;

article 5 does that and it is perhaps sufficient to

refer to those.

But again, we point to those as being objective tests, not some phrase such as "determine or decide"

what is cultural or natural heritage. In other

words, they imply that the responsibility of a

State party,under article 3:

is to identify and delineate

something which is objectively identifiable and

capable of delineation. And, finally, Your Honours,

can I refer to those articles which provide that

international assistance may be requested and

provided to assist in the task of identification.

And again we say, if that is so, if other people can

assist in identification, it must be something

which can be done objectively. Itris not a subjective

decision. That includes - the assistance may include

the training of specialists in that field.- in the

field of identification.

That emerges, Your Honours, from articles 13.2

wher~ . Your Honours will see -that 'request for

international assistance under paragraph 1 of this

article may be concerned with identification of .....

property defined in ~.rticles 1 and 2." Article 22,

if Your Honours go to article 22(c), Your Honours

will see that assistance may include the:

training of staff and specialists at all
levels in the field of -

amongst other things -

identification.

And article·2.3.similarly.

(Continued on page 7)

ClT5/l/DR" 6 9/5/89
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MR DAVIES (continuing-):  And, Your Honours will see, if you go

back to article 20, that the provision of assistance,

except for identification:~ay only be granted to

property forming part of the cultural natural

heritage which the World Heritage Corrnnittee has

decided, or may decide, to enter on its lists."

But, provision for assistance for identification,

quite obviously, may be provided to properties which

are not listed and, indeed, properties which the

World Heritage Corrnnittee has not formed any view about

with respect to listing. Now, our point is that,

because the existence of propert½ in fact, answering

the description of cultural or natural heritage is a

foundation of legislative power, that question is

examinable. In other words, we rely upon the

COMMUNIST PARTY case, although we have not mentioned

this in our outline. We rely upon that,and other

cannot uphold the validity of the law by reference
to a fact or a state of affairs unless it is satisfied
of the existence of that fact or state of affairs.

cases that are like it, to say that really the Court the existence of property which in fact answers the description of cultural or natural heritage.

Your Honours, again without taking Your Honours

to those cases because they are familiar to Your Honours,

can I just give Your Honours the references to some of

those cases in that line of authority. The first is

THE AUSTRALIAN COMMUNITY PARTY V THE COMMONWEALTH,

(1951) 83 CLR 1 at 222, COMMONWEALTH FREIGHTERS V SNEDDON,

(1959) 102 CLR 280 at 307, HUGHES AND VALE V NEW SOUTH

WALES (No. 2), (1955) 93 CLR 127 at 165, and in the two

cases to which we will be referring a little more, in

the TASMANIAN DAM case, Your Honour Justice Brennan

said something about this at pages 231 to 232.

(Continued on page 8)

ClT6/l/FK 7 9/5/89
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MR DAVIES (continuing):  In RICHARDSON V rFORESTRY COMMISSION,

164 CLR 261, there was reference to this principle

by Your Honour the Chief Justice and Your Honour

Justice Brennan in your joint judgment at pages 292

and 294, by Your Honour Justice Deane at pages 307

to 308 and again at 310, and by Your Honour

Justice Gaudron at page 341.

The point we are making, Your Honours, really

can be illustrated by an example. Assume there

is an archaeological find which the Commonwealth

says is of a particular age; assuming, if it

has that age it is of outstanding universal value

and it comes within the definitions in articles 1

and 2 and, indeed, it may even be something which

ought to be listed. But if it were demonstrated

as a fact that it did not have that age then,

in our respectful submission, there will be no

basis for Commonwealth authority in respect of

the implementation of the treaty in respect of

that so-called find.

That is something, in our respectful submission,

which could be demonstrated by judicial process

before this Court.

BRENNAN J:  But· the real problem arises if you can postulate

that an Austr~lian judicial finding would be adverse

to the particular property being part of the cultural or

natural heritage and an international view being

taken by the Committee to the contrary.

MR DAVIES:  Your Honour, in our respectful submission,

and I want to come to that a little later, the

consequences of a decision by the international

Committee do not include consequences which involve

the obligation to protect or conserve. The
consequences which flow from listing are, in our
respectful submission, quite limited consequences
and so, so far as the argument we advance, in
our respectful submission, listing has no relevance.
(Continued on page 9)
ClT7/l/SDL 8 9/5/89
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MR DAVIES (continuing); Your Honours, in our respectful

submission, the proclamation which is made
pursuant to section 6(3) is a step taken in

purported compliance with the obligation which

is imposed by article 5(d). Your Honours will

be familiar with that article because Your Honours

will recall that that was the article which

Your Honours held to create an obligation in

the TASMANIAN DAM case. That provides - this is

on page 23 of the booklet of the Act:

To ensure that effective and active

measures are taken for the protection,

conservation and presentation of the

cultural and natural heritage situated on

its territory, each State Party to this

Convention shall endeavour, in so far as

possible, and as appropriate for each

country: .....

(d) to take the appropriate legal, scientific,
administrative and financial measures
necessary for the identification, protection,

conservation, presentation and rehabilitation of

this heritage;

Your Honours, as I said, held that to constitute an obgliation in the Convention and, in our respectful

submission, it is really a step in the reasoning

in the TASMANIAN DAM case that the proclamation

which was made there was - I should say, the

implementation which was taken there were steps

taken in purported compliance with the obligation

imposed by a.rticle 5 (d), and although that does

not appear abundantly clear from anything

specifically said in the TASMANIAN DAM case,

it does appear, in our respectful submission,

at least by inference, from, for example,

the reasoning of Your Honour Justice Brennan.

If I can take Your Honours to that, at pages 238

to 239, commencing at the last paragraph on page 238.

I will not read it, Your Honours, but it is really

the whole of that paragraph going down to just

below the middle of the following page which,

in our respectful submission, makes the point that

we are making. That is really a step in the

process of reasoning in that case.

That obligation, Your Honours, in S(d), and

indeed the other obligations in a.rticles 4 and 5,

in our respectful submission, arise irrespective

of actual identification or delineation and

a fortiori irrespective of listing. So much

was said by Your Honour Justice Gaudron in

RICHARDSON and, in our respectively submission,

that view is clearly correct. Your Honour,

in that case - 164 CLR 261 - at page 341

CIT8/l/JM 9 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

at the commencement of the first full paragraph

on that page said:

It is not necessary that an area be

identified or delineated, much less

nominated or accepted for inclusion on

the World Heritage List, for it to

constitute part of the heritage to which

the Convention applies.

That clearly follows, in our respectful submission,

from the articles to which we have referred and

the passages to which we referred from Your Honour

the Chief Justice and Your Honour Justice Brennan's

judgment, that those o.bligations in articles 4 and 5,

though not necessarily or not alone in some later

obligations, but those obligations follow in

respect of any property which is in fact cultural

and natural heritage, whether identified or whether

submitted for listing, or listed.

(Continued on page 11)

CIT2/2/JM 10 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
MR DAVIES (continuing):  Your Honours, of course it

is the task of the State party, as appears
from articles 3 and 4, to identify and

delineate. I have already referred to those

to indicate that those terms are stated

objectively rather than indicating that there

is some subjective discretion involved. I

really refer to them now to indicate that it

is the obligation of the State party, not anyone

else, to perform that task of identification

and delineation and if it were not abundantly clear from those articles themselves it would

appear, in our respectful submission, from

the joint judgment of Your Honour the

Chief Justice and Justice Brennan in RICHARDSON,

where on page 289 at the bottom of the page,
second-last sentence on the page, Your Honours

said:

Rather it reinforces the imposition

of that duty by making it plain that

in the matter of identification and

delineation the obligation rests

exclusively, not primarily, with that

State.

That is the State party upon whose territory

the property is. And, we have also referred
to the report of the committee of experts

which form part of the travaux preparatoire

for the Convention and which came before this

Court in the TASMANIAN DAM case. It is part of

our additional material and on page 3 of our

additional material the committee of experts

referred to article 4 and really, perhaps, say

not a great deal more than a correct paraphrase
of that article but, again, it is support for

the proposition we make that the task of

identification and delineation, the obligation

of identification and delineation, is that of

the State party. But it is clear, in our respectful

submission, from what we have said already

that that does not involve any discretionary

element, in particular whether "natural

heritage" is of outstanding universal value

within the meaning of that term in article 2

must be determined from the point of view of

aesthetics, science and conservation.

Your Honours, by contrast with that

decision of the State party to identify and

delineate, the decision of the World Heritage

Committee under article 11 to list is a

discretionary decision. It is not made by

ClT9/l/JH 11 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
deciding whether the property submitted to it is 1'cultural" or "natural heritage"
because those terms are defined in
articles 1 and 2 and, in fact, we would
submit that the World Heritage Committee
assumes, and is entitled to assume, that the
act of identification has been done by the
State party.

What the World Heritage Committee does

is determine in terms of criteria, which it

establishes, so it has a discretion to

establish its own criteria, it then determines

in terms of those criteria whether property

ought to be included on the World Heritage

list. In our respectful submission,it does this

by determining whether there are within the

property submitted sites which it concludes, in
terms of those criteria, to have outstanding

universal value.

(Continued on page 13)

ClT9/2/jH 12 9/5/89
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MR DAVIES (continuing): As I said, its decision in that respect

therefore necessarily involves a subjective discretion
and, in particular, the exercise of that discretion

is not limited to and, indeed, need not include

aesthetics, science or conservation.

BRENNAN J:  I do not understand why you say it is discretionary

in any relevant sense, Mr Davies. Well, in what

relevant sense is it discretionary if the connnittee

performs the function which is assigned to it under

article 11.2 for the purposes of implementing the

Convention?

MR DAVIES:  Because it can lay down its own criteria.
BRENNAN J:  But nct:extraneous to the purpose for which it

exercises its power?

MR DAVIES: Well, I suppose that is certainly true. But it is

discretionary within the purpose of Convention.

I mean, I suppose one can have degrees of discretion, Your Honour, but what I am saying is, it is not an

objective opinion expressed on a matter which can

be readily reviewed. It can lay down its own

criteria within the broad outlines of the Convention,

so it could make them, for example, very much

narrower or it could add additional factors and

it did, in fact, as I will endeavour to show when
taking Your Honours through the material- additional

factors as well as narrowing the area as one would

expect it would. I mean, obviously, every property

which is identified and delineated as forming part

of the cultural or natural heritage does not get

listed and is not entitled to be listed.

So that, in that respect is a narrowing but, in

our respectful submission,there is a further

narrowing by additional criteria really being added,

additional factors being added. I might be able to

demonstrate that, I hope, by taking Your Honours

through the material or, at least, part of it. Can

I take Your Honours first of all to the guidelines

which the Connnittee has laid down for itself? They
are in volume 2; they connnence on page 291. The

criteria for cultural properties are set out at

pages 297 to 298 and a little further. Then,

commencing at page 300 are the.criteria for the

inclusion of what is called "natural properties",

properties forming part of the natural heritage

in the World Heritage list. Paragraph 32 simply

states the definition in article 2. Paragraph 33 says:

A natural heritage property - as defined above -

which is submitted for inclusion in the

World Heritage List will be considered to be

of outstanding universal value for the purposes

of the Convention.

ClTl0/1/VH · 13 9/5/89
Queens land ( 2)

That really means for the purpose of article 11 of the Convention:

When the Committee finds that it meets one
or more of the following criteria and fulfills

the conditions of integrity set out below.

And then there are set out four criteria which are:

major stages of the earth's evolutionary

history ..... significant .... biological evlution .....
areas of exceptional natural beauty -

and habitats of -

threatened species or animals or plants.

Now, the first point we really make, I suppose, is

that those criteria are significantly narrower than

the definition in article 2. I mean, for example,

if you go back to article 2, the definition includes:

precisely delineated areas which constitute the

habitat of threatened species of animals .....

of outstanding universal value from the point

of view of science or conservation.

Whereas criterion 4 says:

contain the most important and significant

natural habitats.

(Continued on page 15)

ClTl0/2/VH 14 9/5/89
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MR DAVIES (continuing): So that is the narrowing but in

addition to that the site is required to fulfil

"conditions of integrity" which are set out in

paragraph 34, and this is really entirely additional

to what is contained in article 2. Page 302

then deals with the procedure and one then goes to page 304 where· there are "Guidelines for the

evaluation and examination of nominations" and

it is said in paragraph 44:

The World Heritage List should be as

representative as possible of all cultural

and natural properties which meet the Convention's

requirement of outstanding universal value

and the cultural and natural criteria adopted

by the Committee.

DAWSON J:  Why did you say that it is an objective process

that is required in relation to the identification

of the relevant matters by the State party?

MR DAVIES:  I said that because of the terms of the Convention

which indicate that words such as "identification"

and "delineate" were used rather than words such

as "determine" or "decide" and the other provisions

I referred to in the Convention are - - -

DAWSON J: That the obligation is imposed fairly and squarely

upon the party itself.

MR DAVIES:  Yes. The obligation is imposed on the party

and the obligation is imposed on the party whether

in fact that party identifies or delineates or

not. The article in 5(d), for example, is an

obligation which is imposed on a State party

who has property answering that description on

its territory - subject to qualifications, of course. I mean there are qualifications about

whether in fact the State party has resources and things of that kind, but subject to those

qualifications the obligation is imposed because

that - - -
DAWSON J:  What I had in mind is simply that the Convention

does not envisage any other identifying party

than the State party itself.

MR DAVIES:  No, it does not. That is true, Your Honour,

but what it does do is say that the obligation

is to identify and delineate not to determine

for itself what property on its territory happens

to be "cultural and natural heritage".

DAWSON J:  What is the difference?
ClTll/1/AC. 15 9/5/89
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MR DAVIES: It is an important difference in this respect,

in that the way in which it is phrased in the

Convention indicates that there is property which answers that description there, you have an obligation

to precisely delineate the boundaries of it and

say -

DAWSON J:  What the Convention says is someone has to determine
this question and the only person you can find

identified as the person who is to determine

it is the State party.

MR DAVIES:  I am not suggesting that in some respect that

is a determination. What I am saying, Your Honour,

is that it is a determination which is easily

reviewable because it is an objective determination

not a subjective one.

DAWSON J:  But it is not objective in the sense that someone

has to determine the question in accordance with

the criteria. In that sense it may be objective

but the person who has to determine i 4 which

is identified by the Convention,is the State

party.

MR DAVIES:  I accept that is true, Your Honour, but all

I am saying in answer to Your Honour is that

because it is stated - because it is defined

in objective terms and because objective terms

are used it is very easy to see whether that

State party has correctly or incorrectly performed

that process.

DAWSON J:  But the determination becomes no more objective

because A rather than B determines it.

MR DAVIES: No, it does not, Your Honour. All I am really

saying in this case is that - I was contrasting

the determination by the State party with the

determination by the World Heritage Committee

to indicate that the first question is really

very much like a finding of fact, whereas in determining something which is already there, the second case it is much closer to a discretionary
value judgment.

BRENNAN J: 

Mr Davies, the obligation to identify and delineate is an obligation arising under the international

Convention, that decision is not a decision reviewable by a municipal court, is it?

(Continued on page 17)

ClTll/2/AC 16 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

MR DAVIES (continuing)·: The decision to - - - ?

BRENNAN J: Identify and delineate?

MR DAVIES:  Your Honour, I think we would rather put it by

saying that the obligations which are~mposed on the

State party exist because property is culturalor

natural heritage, exist as cultural or natural
heritage, whether identified or delineated or not;

that that question, whether the obligation is imposed,

can be determined by simply looking at the question

whether, in fact, that property is cultural or

natural heritage.

The task of identification and delineation really only arises for the purpose of making the

submission to the World Heritage Conu:nittee and with

the consequences which that gives rise to which, as

I indicated to Your Honour earlier, we would submit

are irrelevant for present purposes. They are not

relevant for the purpose of the obligations under

articles 4 or 5.

BRENNAN J: 

The proposition I was putting to you is whether or not the fact is susceptible of determination or not,

the power is one which, the exercise of which is called
for by the international instrument, not by a municipal
law and the exercise of the power under the international
instrument is not susceptible of review judicially by a
municipal court.
MR DAVIES:  Yes, and I was attempting to answer Your Honour by

saying that, for our purposes, the act of identification

and delineation, like the act of listing is irrelevant;

that the obligation imposed under articles 4 and 5 are
imposed not because property is delineated or identified

and not because property is listed and it is, really, to

that that we direct our submissions.

Your Honours, I think I had got as far as page 304

in the guidelines and paragraph 44 where it said: The World Heritage List should be as

representative as possible of all cultural

and natural properties which meet the

Convention's requirement of outstanding

universal value -

and, again, that is the article 11 requirements of

outstanding universal value -

and the cultural and natural criteria adopted

by the Connnittee.

ClT12/l/SH 17 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

So, they have to meet the criteria which are

adopted by the committee.

Your Honours, can I go from there, then, to

the nomination form which appears in volume 1, at

page 8, and it follows a format provided. After,

really, what appears to be passing reference to

cultural property, the statement is made - can I

just go to page 27 where, under the heading Natural
Property, it says:

The nominated area fulfils all four criteria described for inclusion of properties on the

World Heritage List as a 'natural heritage'.

And it sets those out, (1), (2), (3) and (4) but, on

the other hand, a point we really make, there is no

attempt made nor need there be any attempt made to

relate the property specifically to the various
elements in the definition of "cultural heritage"
in article 1 or "natural heritage" in article 2 of

the Convention.

Your Honours, the next document is the report

and recommendation of the International Union of

Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources and I

do not think I need take Your Honours to that.

Annexure C is a report of the Bureau of the World

Heritage Committee. I do not want to take Your Honours

to that. Annexure Dis a further report by the

defendant to the World Heritage Committee; that is

at page 181 and could~ then, take Your Honours back

then to volume 2, to a further report by the IUCN.

(Continued on page 19)

ClT12/2/SH 18 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

MR DAVIES (continuing): It connnences on page 282. I mention

this because, on page 284, it appears that the IUCN

had some concerns about the boundary, but the point

we really make about that is that though it

expressed concerns to Australia about the boundaries,

it did not ever, itself, attempt to determine a more appropriate boundary and that really is because, as

we mentioned earlier, the question of identification and

delineation is one for the State party.

Then, after the guidelines, Your Honours, the only

other relevant document, from our point of view, is the

transcript of the session of the World Heritage Connnittee

on 7 December 1988 that starts at page 325.

Your Honours will see that, in the first paragraph,

second sentence, Dr Thorsell says that thes.ite meets

all four cf:iteria of the World Heritage, and he says

which one is the easiest to meet. On the next

page he deals with the management arrangements, and

really, what the transcript reveals and perhaps all

it reveals, in our submission, is that the question

was determined in terms of the guidelines, not in

terms of articles 1 and 2 of the Convention. There are some remarks by the United States

delegate which are illuminating in that respect. They
appear at pages329 and 330, and on 331. I do not

propose to read those to Your Honours, but they

really make the point, in our respectful submission,

which we have just made. It appears, as is said,
I think, more than once, that cultural heritage

was not the thrust of the nomination, it was really

on the basis of natural heritage. That appears, I think,

finally at page 335 at the top of the page. It is

probably of no legal relevance, Your Honours, but

on 336 it rather indicates that the World Heritage

Connnittee did not think that what they were doing

was having any significance in terms of Australian law.

Your Honours, that there are, in effect, two

stages for listing, the process of identification and

delineation in the first place and then the

nomination and listing by the World Heritage Connnittee,

is perhaps self-evident. That is the only reason, I think, we included the text,"International Wildlife

Law" by Simon Lyster, in our book of additional

material, but that text on page 212 and 213 makes

that point. Under the heading:

a) Listing criteria

(i)Value of the site -

the learned author refers to the "two hurdles"

that havP to be overcome, in that first paragraph

~nd then in the second full paragraph on the following

page, deals with the second of those hurdles.

C1Tl3/l/F-K 19/20 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
MR DAVIES (continuing):  Your Honours, I made the submission

before that listing itself has no relevant

consequences. By that I meant consequences

relevant to a regime of control, such as this:
the regime of control enabling the prescribing of
acts in relation to a property on the territory
of the State party. The only consequences of

listing are two, in our respectful submission.

The first is something which is really just a

formality, that is the distribution of a list

every two years. That appears from article 11

itself, article 11.2.

The second consequence, and this is the

only other consequence of listing, is that it,

that is listing or the possibility of it, there

is a requirement - or I should say, an

additional requirement, a requirement additional

to the property being part of the cultural or

natural heritage before international assistance

may be provided for protection but not identification

of property. And that appears from article 20 to

which I referred Your Honours a little earlier.

But Your Honours, looking at article 20 and, indeed, article 19, it is clear that even in that

case, even the case of international assistance
for protection, the property must first be, in

fact, part of the cultural heritage or natural heritage. So listing alone, in our respectful

submission, has no relevant significance.

DEANE J:  But that is an advantage acquired through listing,
is it not?
MR DAVIES:  It is an advantage acquired through listing,

Your Honour, but not a relevant one in the context

of this case.

DEANE J:  What if there were a dispute between Australia
and other parties to the Convention that came
before the world court? Would it be open to
Australia, enjoying the advantages of listing, to
deny the basis on which it had procured listing?
MR DAVIES:  Your Honour, can I perhaps not answer this by

saying that whether,:in fact, even if the answer

to Your Honour's question was no, that it could

not deny that, that could not, in our respectful

submission, affect the question whether, in fact,

an obligation was imposed by article 4 or 5 and

what facts caused that imposition.

DEANE J:  I may be wrong. I have been following your

ar~ument on the basis that it all goes to getting

you out of 6(2)(b) of the Act. Is that right?

C1Tl4/l/DR 21 9/5/89
Queensland(Z)
MR DAVIES:  We say that 6(2)(b) does not apply, yes.

DEANE J: But that is what this argument is directed to, is

it not?

MR DAVIES: Well, not only directed to that, of course,

Your Honour, because we really say that

it is rather broader than that in the sense that

we say that the obligation, in this case, is

- if an obligation is imposed, that is an

obligation under 4 or 5, it is imposed because

property in fact answers the description of

cultural or natural heritage. Perhaps

I should have added, and that, relevantly,

proclamation under section 6(2) can only affect

the imposition of obligations. It says nothing

of the obtaining of benefits undertheConvention.

DEANE J:  But if, having sought and obtained listing, Australia

is under international law precluded from denying

the basis on which it obtained listing, would not

that be relevant to whether 2(b) applied? Because

it says:

whether by reason of the Convention

or otherwise.

(Continued on page 23)

ClT14/2/DR 22 9/5/89
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MR DAVIES:  Article 2(b), Your Honour?
DEANE J:  6(2)(b) of the Act.
MR DAVIES:  Well, perhaps I should answer Your Honour

directly by saying that if one were to take

the example that I gave earlier of the

archeological find, the Shroud of Turin type

example then,in our respectful submission,

Australia would not be preluded from saying

that it was bound by the Convention because

it could say that, in fact, the basis upon

which it entered into the Convention in the
first place turned out to be wrong.

And, indeed, in our respectful submission, it is difficult to see how that has any adverse consequences in the sense that - I do not know

what dispute Your Honour had in mind - but, in

our respectful submission, it is difficult to

see how there would be any dispute which would
involve Australia which, in our respectful

submission, would result in an unfair result

if Australia were precluded from saying that.

DEANE J:  Well, one obvious example would be if it had

actually received money for the maintenance of

it as world heritage.

MR DAVIES:  Well, I mean, it may well be that that money

is repayable on some other basis, Your Honour.

Your Honours, I was about, I think, to refer you

to some passages in the TASMANIAN DAM case,

in the judgments of the former Chief Justice and

Your Honour the present Chief Justice, as to

the consequences of listing. I have given

Your Honours the reference, of course, to the

TASMANIAN DAM case. The first reference,

Your Honours, is in the judgment of His Honour

the former Chief Justice at pages 88 to 89,

where His Honour said:

Fifthly, the fact that a property is
listed on the World Heritage List imposes no duties on the State on whose territory
that property is situated.

And His Honour then dealt with article 6.2.

Then, Your Honour the present Chief Justice, at

page 135, in the middle of the page, said:

The effect of entry of a property in the

World Heritage List is (1) that it

qualifies the property for entry in the

World Heritage in Danger List; and (2)

it enhances the prospects of the State in

which the property is situated of
securing international assistance pursuant

to the Convention.

ClTlS/1/JH 23 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

That is so, of course, but Your Honour, of

course, had in mind excluding identification -

international assistance for protection and

conservation - but it did not enhance the
prospects of obtaining assistance in that

other respect.

Your Honours, article 12, if I may

take Your Honours to that, recognizes that

there are:

purposes other than those resulting

from inclusion in -

either of the lists in paragraph 11 for which

property might -

have an outstanding universal value.

And, Your Honours would, of course, have

noticed that the phrase "outstanding universal

value" is included and, necessarily one would

think with different meanings, in the first
place the definitions in articles 1 and 2 and,

in the second place, in article 11.

(Continued on page 25)

ClT15/2JJH 24 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

MR DAVIES (continuing): In our respectful submission,

the purposes which article 12 has in mind are
those arising from the property in fact being

cultural heritage or natural heritage within

articles 1 or 2, that is, that obligations

may arise simply because property answers that

description. The obligation in article 5(d)

is an obvious example of that. It would be,

in our respectful submission, a curious

construction of article 12 if the exercise of discretion against listing did not affect the obligation but the exercise of discretion in

favour of listing did. But in our respectful

submission the point about article 12 which

we really make is that the purposes which it
has in mind as still being effective, nothwistanding
absence of listing for those purposes which

necessarily follow from the property being

cultural heritage or natural heritage, is

answering the description in articles 1 or 2.

Your Honours, if one accepts the proposition

that it is necessary that the proclamation be

capable of being reasonably considered to be

appropriate and adapted to achieving the object of the Convention, which seems to have been the

test which the majority of this Co.urt has adopted,

it cannot, in our respectfuly submission, be so

reasonably considered if it is not in respect of

land which is in fact natural heritage or cultural

heritage, because, in our respectful submission,

the fact or circumstance which engages the power -

to use a phrase which Your Honour Justice Gaudron

used in RICHARDSON - the. fact or circumstance

which engages the power is the existence of

property answering that description not,

in our respectful submission, the opinion of

the legislature that it did so. In our respectful

submission, it is to that that the law must be

reasonable capable of being viewed as appropriate

and adapted.

Your Honours, in our respectful submission,

we really should contrast that sort of decision

made by the State party and the existence of the

fact of it being cultural or natural heritage

with the sort of thing which this Court considered

in GERHARDY V BROWN. In other words, the question

of what is cultural or natural heritage is not

in any sense - to use Your Honour Justice Brennan's
phrase - political questions. Although they
involve opinions, they involve opinions which

involve expertise though, of course, as I said

earlier, there may be, notwithstanding the
property comes within the description, political

factors which enter into the question Gt protection -

political factors which enter into factors against

protection, such as the availablility of resources

CIT16/l/JM 25 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
and economic factors and so on. But the actual

question, in our respectful submission, should

be contrasted with the sort of question which

this Court considered in GERHARDY V BROWN.

Can I take Your Honours briefly to that

case, reported in 159 CLR 70? I will not take

Your Honours to the facts of it because

Your Honours are familiar with them, but if I

can just take Your Honours through the judgments

very briefly. His Honour the Chief Justice,

as appears at pages 87 and 88, on the limited

facts before the Court,was prepared to include

that the ethnic group required special protection

and that there was no reason to conclude that

the legislation was more than necessary for that

protection.

(Continued on page 27)

CIT16/2/JM 26 9/5/89
Qtieensland(2)
MR DAVIES (continuing):  He, in doing so, said that the case,

though not one of:

constitutional validity of a statute

depends on facts -

was -

closely analogous to such a case.

He said that at about the middle of page 87.

Your Honour the present Chief Justice similarly
relied on matters of general public knowledge and

on matters before the Court in arriving at your

conclusion in this respect which appears generally

at page 105 of the report. Your Honour, after

quoting from van Dyke,refers to: general public knowledge -

and -

materials before the Court -

and so on. His Honour Justice Murphy relied on the

presumption of validity, as appears- from the pa sage

which is set out at the top of page 108. His Honour

Justice Wilson thought that, on its face, the legislation was valid. That appears from page 113,

the first sentence of his judgment after the quotation

8:t the top of the page. Your l-bnour Justice Brennan !=hought

that there were some facts which cculd be objectively

seen, but there are other questio,-: which were,

as Your Honour thought, politica uestions.

That appears perha~s best seen in the passages

which appears on pages 137 to 139. At 137 there

were some objective circumstances capable of

ascertainment, Your Honour thought. That is at

about point 7 or point 8 on page 137. But then

Your Honour went on to say that there were other

questions which were political questions and
Your Honour then said what they were. But, in our

respectful submission, they are a far cry from

this case. Your Honour, in any event, concluded

that the Court could at least examine whether that

decision was reasonably made. Your Honour mentions
that at page 138, about point 8.

Your Honour Justice Deane thought that whether

the legislation was special measures involved a question of

characterization in a factual context and Your Honour

referred to that at page 148 in the first full

paragraph at about point 6 to point 7. But Your Honour

then went on to say that whether _the provisions were
taken for a sole purpose could be determined by

whether the provisions are capable of being reasonably

~onsidered to be appropriate and adapted. But again,
ClT17/l/VH 27 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

in our respectful submission, that is something

which is clearly of a more subjective nature and
something which is clearly more one which one would
expect should be left to the political arms of

government than something which, in our respectful

submission, can be objectively ascertained, such as

the questions in this case of what is cultural

heritage or what is natural heritage.

As to the other matters, Your Honour looked at

the legisliation in its historical context. That

appears on pages 149 and 150.

(Continued on page 29)

ClTl/2/VH 28 9/5/89
Queensland ( 2)
MR DAVIES (continuing):  Your Honour Justice Dawson at

page 161 also relied on matters of general public

knowledge and on the terms of the Act but

Your Honour thought, as appears from the bottom

of that page, that:

The question whether the Pitjantjatjaras

are a racial or ethnic group requiring

protection -

was a matter, ultimately, for the legislature

but again, in that respect, Your Honour posed

the test as to whether that question might

properly be reached as one for the Court. So

on the whole, in our respectful submission, we

would distinguish that case from this because

the questions which some of Your Honours thought

were matters which could only be examined as

to reasonableness were questions which, in our

respectful submission, may be contrasted with

the questions in this case.

Your Honours, the question whether property

the subject of protective legislative regime

was cultural heritage or natural heritage was

not in issue in the TASMANIAN DAM case. And

it was not, at least partly, for the reason

that Tasmania itself had requested nomination

of the area. That really appears in the judgment

of the Chief Justice in setting out the facts.

It appears, at least in part, Your Honours,

on page 64 of His Honour's judgment in that case

where he said - in the last full paragraph:

The State of Tasmania acknowledges

the significance and beauty of the area

of the Parks as a whole -

and then if I leave out the next sentence and

commence:

It asserts that the natural features which justify the listing of the Parks are to
be found in the Parks as a whole -

in other words, what Tasmania was asserting, that

certainly it was natural heritage but that flooding

a little bit of it would not harm the whole.

So it does appear, in our respectful submission, that

that question was not in issue and Your Honour

Justice Gaudron remarked on - - -

MASON CJ:  But is that entirely corrrect? Was there not

an issue about cultural heritage, as to whether
or not the archaeological sites brought the property

within the World Heritage regime? If you look

at page 65 for example and page 66. Page 65 sets
forth the Commonwealth's allegation.
ClT18/l/AC 29 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

Page 66 at the top begins:

The State of Tasmania, on the other

hand, asserts that there are no or no

significant archaeological sites in the

subject area.

MR DAVIES:  I accept what Your Honour says. In the end

that does not matter for the purpose of our argument

in the sense that once it is accepted that the

total area is natural heritage that is the end

of the matter for the purpose of both the protective

regime and also the question of whether in fact

it could be listed, or ought to be listed.

McHUGH J:  I think the last two paragraphs on 66 and the

top of 67 support what you were putting about

it - it did not really arise.

MASON CJ:  Yes, that does seem to be so.
MR DAVIES:  Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. May I just mention

in passing that Your Honour Justice Gaudron in

RICHARDSON, at page 340, noted that "it was not

in issue" in the TASMANIAN DAM case:

that the land so identified and delineated

constituted part of the natural heritage

as defined in the Convention.

So that question really was not in issue and

the only questions which were in issue were,

in our respectful submission, whether the subject-

matter of the legislation had to be a matter

of international importance in the sense of

affecting Australia's relations with other countries

or persons or things outside Australia for the

legislation to be within the external affairs

power and, secondly, whether to be within that

power it was sufficient and necessary for the

legislation to give effect to obligations imposed

by the Convention and whether the Convention

in fact imposed an obligation. (Continued on page 31)
ClT18/2/AC 30 9/5/89
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MR DAVIES (continuing):  But the important thing, in our

respectful submission,is that the question which

is being raised here was not in issue in that case

nor did this question arise in RICHARDSON. There,

in our respectful submission, the question was

whether there was a basis for invalidating a

legislative judgment that an area may possess

heritage characteristics which justified interim

protection. That appears from - and I will not

take Your Honours to it - the judgment of Your Honour
the Chief Justice and Justice Brennan at page 294 and

from Your Honour Justice Gaudron's judgment at page 346

but here, by contrast, in our respectful submission,

the question is concerned with the making of a

conclusive finding of constitutional fact, namely,

that property is part of the natural or cultural

heritage thus justifying the making of a proclamation

under section 6(3).

May I just, for the sake of completeness on

that aspect of the matter, take Your Honours to
section 6(2) and the various paragraphs there. The

first of those, (a), of course, has no application in

the present factual situation; (b) and (c), in our

respectful submission, can only each apply if the

property is cultural heritage or natural heritage

because, in our respectful submission, they are

essential prerequisites of the performance of the

treaty or the incurring of obligations.

McHUGH J:  Mr Davies, why is not the obligation of the State

party to take various steps in respect of the cultural

and natural - property which it genuinely considers is

cultural or natural heritage?

MR DAVIES:  Your Honour, we say the answer to that appears from

the Convention itself. First of all, that there are

definitions of "cultural" or "natural heritage. They

are defined in sufficiently objective terms to enable

an objective assessment to be made of whether, in fact,

it is, in fact, cultural or natural heritage. Secondly,

the terms which are used to impose the obligations upon

the State party are terms such as "identify and delineate",

not "decide or determine". Thirdly, it obviously

envisages that obligations will be incurred irrespective

of what is done towards the process of listing the

property and the other objective terms in the Convention

to which we have referred and we say simply that the

terms of the Convention indicate that those questions

are objectively ascertainable. In the end, Your Honour,

the difference between what you put to me and the

submission I am making is whether one adopts the first

alternative answer which we give to the question or

the second, in our respectful submission.

ClT19/l/SH 31 9/5/89
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MR DAVIES (continuing):  In either event, in our

respectful submission, the question is

examinable; the only question really is,
whether the question for the Court is whether

the property is cultural or natural heritage, or whether the property is reasonably capable

of being natural or cultural heritage. We

submit, with respect, that the first answer to

that question derives from the terms of the

Convention itself and, indeed, from the sort
of statements to which I referred from

His Honour the Chief Justice and Justice Brennan

in the TASMANIAN DAM case, that, in fact,

answering the description.

McHUGH J:  If it is a question of genuine identification
and submission, then it may be a question

that is not justiciable.

MR DAVIES:  Your Honour, the question of - - -

McHUGH J: It involves judgment, political judgment.

MR DAVIES: 

Well, it is a long way from - that is why

I had attempted to distinguish GERHARDY V BROWN,
Your Honour. It is a real long way from saying

whether, in fact, something ought to be done for
a particular people which one can see is a
political judgment. It is a long way from that
to looking at a provision which purports to be
a definition and is referred to in the
Convention as a definition and appears to be
in objective terms and is referred to in
objective terms whether, in fact, that
state of affairs exists or not.
DEANE J:  Mr Davies, do you not have to be a little

more precise in identifying the legal question?

I mean, for example, I do not quite follow

whether you are saying the proclamation

is invalid because it goes beyond the relevant

provisions of the Act or the relevant

provisions of the Act are invalid.

MR DAVIES:  Well, I would say, first, the proclamation

is invalid because it goes beyond the relevant

provisions of the Act.

DEANE J:  Then, does that not take us to seeing whether

the Act requires in a case such as this that

the property be cultural or natural heritage?

MR DAVIES:  Well, I would say that reading the Act

together with the Convention, you must read it

down to mean that, Your Honour,and that there is

nothing specific in the Act which goes beyond that.

ClT20/l/JH 32 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

But, one must, in our respectful submission,

read the Act together with the - - -

DEANE J:  But, you are going to take us to the

provisions of the Act to show how it must be

read down to exclude this proclamation?

MR DAVIES:  I did not intend to take Your Honour any

further to the provisions of the Act in that

respect, I do not think.

DEANE J:  But, must that not be the legal question? I

mean, if the proclamation is within the Act,

the only attack can be on the provisions of

the Act.

MR DAVIES:  I suppose, one of my purposes in taking

Your Honour through section 6(2) was to say - perhaps an alternative argumen~ that one of

the provisions of section 6(2) could be invalid

if it were read in one way. But, I did not

really intend to do any more than that, I do

not think, Your Honour.

DEANE J:  I mean, if you were to succeed in getting

the case out of 6(2)(b) either read down or on

some other basis, can you just ignore 6(2)(d)?

MR DAVIES: 

6(2)(d) is, I suppose, a problem, Your Honour, but we would say that listing alone does

not show international concern for the
protection of property but only concern for such
part of the property, if any, which is part of
the cultural or natural heritage.
DAWSON J:  Are we talking about 6(2)(b) or (d)?
MR DAVIES:  (d). (b) and (c), I was really simply saying,

that they could only apply if the property

is cultural or natural heritage. They are

alternative arguments in the sense that that

if those submissions are wrong, then those

statutory provisions are invalid, in our

respectful submission.

(Continued on page 34)

ClT20/2iJH 33 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

MR DAVIES (continuing): All I am really saying with respect

to (d) is that if the factual basis for the

nomination is missing then the international

concern must disappear. And certainly we would

say, of course, that the legislative power
is limited to giving effect to the Convention.

And to the extent that the paragraph goes beyond

that power, we would say it is invalid. As I

recall, the validity of that paragraph was
expressly left open in the TASMANIAN DAM case.

(e), of course, seems to have been viewed by the majority in the TASMANIAN DAM case as

being invalid. But, Your Honours, subject to

what I have said, I did not intend to deal in

detail with the provisions of the Act, but if

there is some matter in which I should specifically

answer then I will do so.

DEANE J:  Well, in one sense your argument is aimed, if you
are concerned with the Act, primarily at
section 3A, is it not, t·1:1.ich makes quite clear
that this Act applies in respect of property
which may not be part of a cultural heritage or
natural heritage.  It is any one of A(l),(2), (3) and (4).

MR DAVIES: That is true in one sense although, of course, it

does not apply in any appropriate sense unless

section 6(2) also applies.

DEANE J:  But it is carried over into section 6(2) by the
introductory words of 6(2).
MR DAVIES:  Yes. I am sorry, all I was really saying is that

it is necessary that a property be an identified
property within the meaning of section 3 and a

property which comes within section 6(2) before

a proclamation can be made. Maybe the attack

has to be in the alternative against 6(2) or the

earlier provision~ But I was simply concentrating it on 6(2) in the sense that section 3A has really

no consequence unless the property also comes

within section 6(2).
DEANE J:  I will not take time, but what I am having difficulty
with is reading this Act, particularly 6(2)(d). It
is clear that the Act is concerned with wider
concerns than the mere identification of cultural
or natural heritage. That being so, I have great
difficulty in following an argument which, instead
of attacking the breadth of the Act, homes in
directly on the proclamation and attacks it on the
basis that it is not confined to natural or
cultural heritage.
MR DAVIES:  I take Your Honour's point. Perhaps I was - the

proclamation is really the focus of our argument

ClT21/l/DR 34 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

and perhaps Your Honour is correct in saying that

we should be attacking the Act. But we do so, at

least in the alternative, we are saying one or the

other. We are saying either the proclamation is

invalid because the provisions of the Act can be

read down to be limited to property which is, in

fact, cultural or natural heritage. If that is

not so, if that reading-down process cannot be done -

and the reading-down process, in our respectful

submission, is more appropriately done in

section 6(2) than in section 3A - if that reading-

down process cannot be done then, in our respectful

submission, those provisions of the Act which

go beyond property which is, in fact, natural or

cultural heritage, are invalid.

McHUGH J: But the difficulty with that is this, is it not,

that it is sufficient to come within the proclamation

power under 6(3) that the property is included in the World Baritage ~ist under 3A(l)(iii), and that it complies with (d) of section 6(2).

MR DAVIES:  Yes.

(Continued on page 36)

C1T21/2/DR 35 9/5/89
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McHUGH J:  That has really got little to do wit±, whether it is
within the definition of "cultural or natural
heritage", has it?
MR DAVIES:  We would not accept that, Your Honour. We would

say, on a reading-down process you can say that the

only properties in respect of which there can be

international concern can be properties which are
in fact part of the cultural or natural heritage;

the listing alone does not do it.

McHUGH J: That is not the theory the Act appears to proceed

upon. Paragraph (d) might seem to proceed on

the basis tnat the fact that you are on the list

may itself make it a matter of international

concern.

MR DAVIES:  The Act is no doubt intended to give it the

widest possible ambit, Your Honour, I accept

that. The question is, I suppose, whether those

provisions can properly be read down in the way

that we submit. If they cannot - - -

McHUGH J:  I would not have thought it was a question of
reading down; I would have thought it was a
question of validity.
MR DAVIES:  If they cannot, then it is a question of validity.

We accept it is one or the other and it does not matter for the purpose of our argument which is

correct.

McHUGH J: Your stated case does not - the questions

in the case do not come near those questions,

do they?

MR DAVIES: Certainly the first does, Your Honour, in this

sense: the question which the Conunonwealth really

wants answered "Yes" is that listing alone is

sufficient to validate the proclamation and

we say that is not so. Listing alone will not

do it; the only thing which will do it is listing

if the property is part of the natural or cultural

heritage. In fact, listing is irrelevant, we say;

it will only be valid if the property is natural

or cultural heritage. In our respectful submission,

that isconsistent with section 6(2)(d) being

read down to say that there is only international

concern if the property is natural or cultural

heritage, or, that if it cannot be so read down

that section 6(2)(d) is invalid.

BRENNAN J:  The proposition that you read section 6(2)(d)

in that way is to be resol11ed by reference to the
existence of an international obligation under

section 6(2)(b), or existence of international

concern under section 6(2)(d), questions which

CIT22/l/JM 36 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

on either count are to be determined by reference

to international law rather than by municipal

law.

MR DAVIES: Accepting that to be so, Your Honour, if I go

back to the example I gave earlier, assuming

that was demonstrably wrong, the international

concern must in fact disappear. There can be

no international concern if the property in fact

is not part of the world cultural or natural

heritage. If that appeared demonstrably incorrect -

supposing in this case, where the material before
the World Heritage Committee shows that there
are 400 endangered species of birds in this

area, and we can demonstrate that in fact there are

no endangered species of birds in this area and

that that was the sole basis for listing - I should

not say just "listing" because "listing" is not

alone a submission, but steps which include listing

of a particular part of this property. In our

respectfuly submission, if that was demonstrable,

then the international concern would disappear.

BRENNAN J: For myself, r am not; sure that that is self-evident,

if only for the reason that was put to you

earlier by Justice Deane, if there had been

an allocation of funds for protection of these
non-existent birds and that had been spent in

the construction of aviaries, I would have thought

that perhaps there might be something to be

said that the international cor.miunity has some

concern in the property.

MR DAVIES:  The concern would be more about getting the

money back, I suppose, at that stage.

BRENNAN J: Well, whatever it might be, yes.

(Continued on page 38)

CIT22/2/JM 37 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
MR DAVIES:  But quite seriously, Your Honour, the international

concern for the survival of those birds would not
any longer exist; it could not if, in fact, it

was demonstrable that they were not an endangered

species which is necessary for article 2.

BRENNAN J:  But it would be necessary to take it far past the

stage of argument to the point of demonstration,

would it not?

MR DAVIES: Well, that depends upon whether Your Honour accepts

our first alternative proposition. If our first

alternative proposition is correct, then the mere

fact that it can be demonstrated would be sufficient.

BRENNAN J:  But that assumes that a local demonstration will

have some kind of judicial declaratory effect in the mind of the internationalcommunity. It seems to be a large step.

MR DAVIES:  Your Honour, in the end, of course, we are concerned

with the validity of local legislation.

BRENNAN J:  But not the validity of legislation but the

operation of the legislation construed in the manner

for which you contend.

MR DAVIES:  Either of those, Your Honour. My alternatives are

either of those, one or other of those; in our

respectful submission, that in the end, to determine

the validity of internal legislation by reference to

a head of power, one must be able to say whether

in fact the fact or circumstances which gives rise

to that head of power existed or not.

BRENNAN J:  Oh, yes.
MR DAVIES:  And if, in fact, the fact or circumstance is that

it is natural or cultural heritage, then one must

be able to demonstrate before a court that that

fact or circumstance did not exist. Your Honours, I think that I have said all that I really need to

say, even including our alternative argument, because,

in the course of developing what we have said is our

main approach, we have, I think, put the alternative

argument and, unless there are any further matters

Your Honours wish to raise with me, they are our submissions.

MASON CJ: Thank you, Mr Davies. Yes, Mr Solicitor.

MR GRIFFITH:  If the Court please, may I hand the Court our

contentions?

ClT23/l/VH. 38 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
MASON CJ:  Yes.
MR GRIFFITH: 

If the Court pleases, we make our basic

contention in paragraph 1 . of our contentions, that
the inclusion of the property in the list, we submit,

establishes in itself that - and we refer to the
three paragraphs of section 6(2l(b), (c) and (d) -
validly apply. We would submit there is no other
relevant issue and therefore the proclamation
should be regarded as valid.  If we could refer briefly
to the scheme of the Act.  We submit that the
scheme established by the Act is by reference to
proclamation, in this case made on 15 December 1988
after the listing earlier that month, which IB provided
for under section 6(3) of the Act, that is on page 5
of  the print handed by my learned friend,
Mr Davies, to the Court.

The listing was on 9 December 1988 by the

World Heritage Committee. The Court is aware that

there was an earlier proclamation, but that was

superseded by the existing proclamation of

15 December. There were regulations made on 16 Decerriber

under section 2l(l)(a) of the Act whereby the

Governor-General proscribes certain acts in relation

to the property for the purposes of section 9(1) of

the Act. For the purposes of contention between the

plaintiffs and this action, the regulations deal with

a general prohibition of forestry operations without

the requisite ministerial consent. ·

The regulations are not contained in the materials before the Court, and are the subject of

proceedings on remitter to the Federal Court
pursuant to the order made by Justice Gaudron on

24 January. So we need not be concerned with

issues pertaining to the validity or ambit of the

regulations. We would submit that the validity of

the proclamation under section 6(3) is a question of

statutory power under the Act, considered, of course

in the light of Parliament's legislative powers under

the CONSTITUTION, and, as to that, we would submit

that there are three statutory prerequisites for

the validity of the proclamation. These are briefly

referred to by His Honour the Chief Justice in the

interlocutary proceedings in this action which were

reported in (1988) 62 ALJR 143 ,- in particular
at page 145.

Those three statutory prerequisites which we

identify, and which were referred to by His Honour

in that part of his judgment are, firstly, that the

property must be identified property. Identified

property is defined in section 6(2) and,in particular,

section 3A(l) provides a definition which is carried

over to section 6(2). In this case it suffices, we

would submit, to have regard to the definition under

ClT24/l/FK 39 l1IR GRIFFITH, QC 9/5/89
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paragraph 3A(l)(a)(iii), namely that the

property is included in the World Heritage List

provided for in paragraph 2 of article 11 of the

Convention.

Of course, when the proceedings were issued,

the property was merely the subject, or about to
become the subject,of World Heritage List nomination
but the supervening completion of the process of

listing on 9 December 1988 means that the issue

before the Court is by reference to the definition of

identified property as it is defined coming within

the definition of paragraph (iii). This question of

identified property, we submit, is not in issue.

In the amended statement of claim found in volume 2

at page 382, the plaintiffs abandoned their former

contention that the property was not identified

property.

(Continued on page 41)

ClT24/2/FK 40 9/5/89
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MR GRIFFITH (continuing):  We would submit, of course, that

clearly it is identified property because of the

fact that it has been included in the World Heritage

List and that is established by the case stated,

paragraph 5,and various of the documents in the

two volumes of materials go to the issue of the

final identification of the property.

The second issue is whether the property is

one to which one or more of the subparagraphs of

section 6(2) apply. We submit that this is the

issue before the Court. Indeed, we submit that it

is the only issue before the Court because the

statement of claim which we refer to, commencing

on page 382 of the book, does not contain any

allegation in respect of the validity of any of

the paragraphs of section 6(2). The only relevant

allegations are in respect of alleged invalidity of

the proclamation.

The third issue which we say, again, is not in

issue is whether the property in respect of which

the Governor-General is satisfied, that it is. being

or is likely to be damaged or destroyed. That is

picked up by section 6(3) and that, again, is not

in issue. The reply to the amended defence,which

is found on page 394,confirms that there is no issue

concerning the Governor-General's satisfaction for

the purpose of section 6(3).

So, we submit the only live issue affecting the

validity of the proclamation is whether section 6(2)

has valid application to the property. We submit

as to that that when one considers paragraphs 6(2)(b), which is the primary paragraph to which reference may

be had, firstly, it may be said that Australia is a

party to the Convention. It was ratified by Australia

on 22 August 1974. One sees a reference to that to
158 CLR 80.
Secondly, we submit that the Convention imposes

international obligations on Australia as a State

party in respect of property within Australia forming

part of the world cultural or natural heritage,

articles 4 and 5 and, although in this case 'nomination"

does refer in a passing fashion to the cultural heritage,

it is clear from the consideration of the nomination

that the consideration was determined, really, solely

by reference to the factors of natural heritage and

we would submit it is sufficient for the Court to

have regard to matters of natural heritage in respect
of this property for the purposes of this case.

As my learned friend, Mr Davies, pointed out, the TASMANIAN DAM case establishes that this Convention

ClT25/l/SH 41 9/5/89
Queensland( 2)

imposes obligations on State parties and, as to that,

we feel it is unnecessary for us to take the Court to

the various references of the judgments of the Court
in the TASMANIAN DAM case but merely say that this

construction was one confirmed by the Court in

RICHARDSON V THE FORESTRY COMMISSION, (1987-1988)

164 CLR 261.

We say, further, the property was identified by

Australia as forming part of the heritage such

identification being expressed in the act of

nomination of the property for listing in accordance

with article 11.1 of the Convention and one finds

that from the case stated, paragraph 3,and annexure A

to which my learned friend referred but took the Court

to only passing reference. We say, further, that the

property was included in the World Heritage List by
determination of the World Heritage Committee, pursuant

to article 11.2 on 9 December 1988. That is, case

stated paragraph 5.

Therefore it follows, we submit, that the property has been identified in accordance with the

Convention procedures as part of the cultural or natural heritage. Accordingly, articles 4 and 5 of

the Convention impose obligations on Australia to

protect and conserve the property and that comes,

of course, squarely within the terms of

section 6(2)(b) and we, therefore, submit that at

all relevant times since the date of the proclamation

and at the date of proclamation, the protection and

conservation of the property was a matter of

international obligation by reason of the Convention.

(Continued on page 43)

ClT25/2/SH 42 9/5/89
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DAWSON J:  Well, .you say it is the identification of the

property that gives rise to the obligation?

MR GRIFFITH: Nq Your Honour, there can be an obligation

before, yes.

DAWSON J:  Well, yes, but in this case?
MR GRIFFITH:  Yes. In this case, the issue is whether,

when the property is listed, if not before,

upon listing it becomes a matter which is

indisputable, Your Honour, that there is a matter

of obligation to protect and conserve.

DAWSON J:  That is certainly listing but, prior to that,

the identification, you say, would make it

indisputable that there was an international

obligation.

MR GRIFFITH:  Well, Your Honour, that is a separate issue

which is'not presently before the Court.

DAWSON J:  But what do ypu say about it?
MR GRIFFITH:  Well, Your Honour, we would say that if

there was no allegation of mala £ides in

respect of the process of identification and

nomination, our primary submission would be that

would be so, Your Honour. It is a matter of

expressions,when used by judgment in this Court,

of calculus, Your Honour - of calculus of a

number of factors - so that we would say

Your Honour in the circumstance where there was no

'

allegation that the nomination had not

proceeded bona fide., it would be a matter

inappropriate for inquiry in this Court to

consider whether or not this Court took the

view that the property was, as my learned friend

Mr Davies suggested, in fact, of world

heritage.

DAWSON J:  So in other words, the Convention gives to
the State party the function, rightly or

wrongly, of identifying what it considers to be

property which is in the natural or cultural

heritage.

MR GRIFFITH:  Well, we would prefer to express,

Your Honour, bona fide, to do its honest best.

DAWSON J: All right, I follow that.
MR GRIFFITH:  Yes, and if that is the case, Your Honour,

we say that is a duty imposed pursuant to the

Convention and complied with in those terms.

C1T26/1/JH 43 9/5/89
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DAWSON J:  And the Convention does not envisage some

other body coming in and saying, "Well that
does not matter, in fact it did not fall
within what we consider to be a breach

of the definition.

MR GRIFFITH:  What the Convention does envisage,

Your Honour, I will take the Court in detail

to it, is that for some of the purposes of the

Convention, Your Honour, there is a

superimposed examination by the World Heritage
Committee seeking technical assistance as
contemplated both by the terms of the

Convention and the practice of the State parties to ensure, Your Honour, that in

respect of such property which is nominated,

that it does, by reference to criteria

determined by the Committee, Your Honour, fulfil

the standards of being world heritage; in this

case we say natural heritage.

But, Your Honour, it is our submission

that the issue before the Court really is the

issue at "the top of the hill". That is, when
the property has been listed, is further

inquiry possible?

DAWSON J:  That is not the way Mr Davies puts it though.
MR GRIFFITH:  No, but it is the way we put it,

Your Honour,and we say - - -

DAWSON J:  Yes, I just wanted to know what you had to say

in answer to Mr Davies.

MR GRIFFITH: 

Yes, well, Your Honour, we say, it having been listed, it becomes indisputable that it is

world heritage and it is our submission then,
Your Honour, that there is no occasion for
examination by a municipal court as to the
underlying matter of fact so - - -

DAWSON J: 

So, you would say the thing but you are identifying it?

MR GRIFFITH:  Well, we would, Your Honour, but we say it

is unnecessary for us to say and examine that here.

We do rely upon, Your Honour, the fact of

listing and that is the point of the question

which has been referred to the Court and we -

DEANE J:  But you would still keep your bona fide

qualification, presumably?

MR GRIFFITH:  Yes, Your Honour. Well, Your Honour, in

the case of listing by the World Committee, we

would say it is inconceivable, Your Honour,

ClT26/2/JH 44 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

that a mala fide nomination could be

listed so that if it were alleged, Your Honour,

we would probably assert that that is

untenable.

DEANE J:  Well, it is not to me but, perhaps, that

is quite irrelevant.

MR GRIFFITH:  Well, Your Honour, what we will seek to

do briefly is to take the Court through the

documents to indicate the nature of the

examination.

DEANE J:  I was not suggesting that there was any lack
of bona fides here. I can envisage

circumstances in which an international

committee might seek to accommodate the wishes

of one of their members.

(Continued on page 46)

ClT26/3/JH 45 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
MR GRIFFITH:  Your Honour, we would cavil at that, with respect.

We would submit - and we intend to take the Court

through, not so much to show that here was
completely bona fide but to show the nature of

the examination is a review on the merit. And

we would submit, Your Honour, that there is

sufficient there to establish that the practice

of the State parties is to ensure only properties

which meet a rigorous standard of universal

outstanding qualification are listed and, Your Honour,

we would submit that that must carry with it,

by implication, that once listed a property could

not be regarded.

DEANE J: Let us not take time but that sounds a bit like

saying that the ad hoc members' judgment in the

World Court always is a proper reflection of

international law.

MR GRIFFITH: Yes, Your Honour. Perhaps there is no need

to go into it but the practice of the committee

is that any representative of the nominating

country does not participate and we say it is

a matter, Your Honour, where one should demur

to the practice of the State parties pursuant
to the Convention in respect of their consideration

of the merits and their view on the merits.

DEANE J:  But you do accept the qualification of bona fide
listing?
MR GRIFFITH:  Your Honour, if there was an allegation of

that here we would accept that that would be

an issue, although we would seek to answer it in

that way. But there is no such allegation so

it is not an issue.

Firstly, may I refer to the international

obligation to protect and conserve and, of course,

we rely upon the TASMANIAN DAM case as authority

for the proposition that Australia does have

international obligations under the Convention

and we refer, in passing, to the statement by

Your Honour, the present Chief Justice, at page 132

and the statement by Your Honour Justice Deane,

at page 263 point 3, where Your Honour said:

the provisions of the Convention impose

real and identifiable obligations and provide

for the availability of real benefits at
least in respect of those properties which

have, in accordance with the procedure

established by the Convention, been indisputably

made the subject of those obligations and

identified as qualified for those benefits

by being entered, upon the nomination of

the states in which they are situated, on

the World Heritage List.

ClT27/l/AC 46 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

And, of course, we refer with emphasis to

Your Honour's phrase "indisputably made the subject

of those obligations". Your Honour Justice Brennan,
at page 231, said: 

the obligation imposed upon Australia to

protect and conserve the listed property.

We would submit that when one looks at the Convention, and we have regard to the preamble

as well as to the operative parts - without taking

the Court through the preamble by reading it

to you, we submit that in summation the preamble

itself establishes, and of course it may be relied

upon in passing by the Vienna Convention of the

Law of Treaties, article 31. Your Honour, I

think my learned friend, Mr Davies, did hand

to the Court a list of materials. We have a bundle

of materials as well and it may be convenient

if I give them to the Court now. This volume

does cover some of the same material that my

learned friend gave to the Court but the first

document on page 1 is a list of parties as at

1 January 1989. To that list there is to be

added Uraguay which acceded 9 March 1989, so

there is now some 109 members.

(Continued on page 48)

C 1 T 2 7 / 2 /AC. 47 9/5/89

Queensland(2)

MR GRIFFITH (continuing.): There is also attached on page 2 a

list of listed documents as at 31 December 1988_

and we refer to that as giving contemporary content to
the matters of international concern in respect of

which the terms of the Convention have attached to

the extent of properties being listed. On page 6 there

is an extract of articles 31 and 32 of the

Vienna Convention. that I think mylearned friend,

Mr Davies, included in his materials. On page 9 -

the report of the experts, 15 June 1972, that

Mr Davies also referred to. The remaining two

documents are, firstly a copy of the UNESCO

publication, The Courier, of August 1988 which in

a background way elucidates, we would say, what

might be regarded as the operative view in organisations'

perception of the contemporary operation of the

Convention and, in particular, we refer to the article

on the World ijeritage concept by Michael Parent

on page 63.

The publication is not entirely a glossy because

this article does provide a contemporary summation,

we would submit, of the operation of the Convention.

Then, on page 65,there is a very useful summary

under the subheading:  , ...

The World Heritage Convention and how it works -

which runs over to page 67. There follows on

page 68 a list of 288 properties as of December 1987.

The earlier document is the updated December 1988

version. The last document is an article extracted

from a publication in Australia, "Heritage Australia"
by Professor Slatyer who was for some time chairman
of the World Heritage Committee in 1981 to 1983.
That also is a useful summation on page 73 to 75 of
the operation of the listing process and, in particular,

for example· on page 74, the middle of the middle

column, refers to the fact that the practice to receive

reports from, in the case of natural heritage, the

IUCN:

recognizes the fact that theCommittee is

not an expert Committee, as has already

been mentioned, but also recognizes

that if a particular nomination comes from

the country of a committee member, it would

uut the committee into a difficult situation

if that member were able to advocate and

debate its listing.

So, in the article, Professor Slatyer indicates the

elements of. independent professional assessment by

reference to the guidelines which is part of the

protess of listing. So we refer to that as a

contemporary statement of, we would put it, the

content of the process of examination in the listing

process.

ClT28/l/VH 48 9/5/89
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I mentioned that we relied upon the Convention as establishing the nature of international concern

in respect of the detection, identification and

protection of matters which come within the description

of cultural heritage and natural heritage.

In particular, when one sees the last paragraph

of the preamble, where, it is acknowledged that

"it is essential for this purpose to adopt new

provisions in the form of a convention; establish

an effective system of collective protection of

the cultural or natural heritage of outstanding

universal value, organized on a permanent basis and

in accordance with modern scientific methods," so that
the preamble, we submit, lays a framework of
international concern to ensure a system of

co-operative identification and also protection of

World Heritage areas coming within the description

of "outstanding universal value."

(Continued on page 50)

ClT28/2/VH 49 9/5/89
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MR GRIFFITH (continuing):  Of course, as is indicated by

paragraph IV of the experts' report of 1972, which

appears on page 9 of our materials, in reference

to the definitions, the point was made in

paragraph 14 on page 12 that:

the definitions of the cultural heritage and

the natural heritage respectively which were

included in the Draft Convention -

it said:

it should be noted that the Committee did not

define the meaning of the words "of oustanding

universal value".

They were deliberately left undefined by the

committee, we would submit, to enable the
State parties, through the aegis of the World

Heritage Committee in its capacity to provide

for guidelines, to develop a body of State

practice in respect of what is referred to

the mechanism of ensuring a collective protection of

cultural or natural heritage organized on a

permanent basis in accordance with modern scientific

method.

We submit that when one looks at the Convention,

including the travaux and other relevant documents,

it is clear that the pre-eminent Convention

obligations is protection and conservation of a

property. That embodies the very object of the

Convention. So, for example, Your Honour the

present Chief Justice said in the TASMANIAN DAM

case, 158 CLR at page 138:

Implementation of the Covention, and of

the obligation which it imposes on

Australia in relation to the property, calls for the establishment of a regime of

control which will ensure protection and

conservation of the property.

As to these international obligations, our submission

is that firstly they would attach to property which
is in fact part of the World Heritage as defined.

Your Honour Justice Gaudron said that in RICHARDSON,

as my learned friend referred to in 164 CLR at

page 341, and it is also a statement made by

Justice Wilcox in MINISTER FOR ARTS, HERITAGE and

ENVIRONMENT V PEKO-WALLSEND LTD, 75 ALR at page 250.

DAWSON J: As defined by the Convention?

MR GRIFFITH:  I beg your pardon, Your Honour?
CIT29/l/JM 50 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

DAWSON J: That would attach to property as defined

by the Convention?

MR GRIFFITH:  As defined by the Convention, yes, Your Honour.

DAWSON J: That is pretty meaningless, because there has

to be a definition before you can really put

any meaning into it.

MR GRIFFITH: 

Of course there does, Your Honour, and the Convention provides - - -

DAWSON J: Delineation.

MR GRIFFITH:  The Convention provides the mechanism for

it.

DAWSON J: Really, what it becomes in essence is the

obligation attaches to property delineated

by the State party.

MR GRIFFITH:  Yes. Well, Your Honour -

DAWSON J: In a practical sense,that is what it means.

MR GRIFFITH: In a practical sense, we would agree, Your Honour.

My learned friend made a submission, I think

along the same lines as my one, saying that

the obligation exists in the air, as it were,

and he says that is the primary fact: is it

World Heritage? If it does, the obligation to

protect and conserve attaches because in fact

it is. But that is unenforceable, Your Honour.

DAWSON J:  Of course, it is. You are talking value

judgments and until someone has made a value

judgment it means nothing.

MR GRIFFITH: With respect, Your Honour, we entirely agree.

DAWSON J: 

So really the whole point of the Convention is to place an obligation on the State parties to define the property and then the obligations ensue

from that?

MR GRIFFITH: Yes, well, Your Honour, we say another

matter of the international structure of the
Convention is to provide that as a gateway to
the next step of identification, namely

consideration on its merits by the World Heritage

Committee.

(Continued on page 52)

CIT29/2/JM 51 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
DAWSON J: But listing does not mean anything much. It

qualifies you for financial assistance and, perhaps,

some other things but it is not really the thrust

of the Convention at all.

MR GRIFFITH:  With respect, Your Honour, we submit it is because

we submit that is what lifts it out of local concern

and takes it off so that it is perceived to be, by

listing on the list by the World Heritage Committee,

a matter of international concern and obligation so

that when listed, Your Honour, we would submit quite

independently of any underlying review of whether or

not there is this bird species or that, there is a

valid and proper international perception that that

property is of World Heritage status within the

meaning of the Convention and recognized by the

State parties to the Convention as such.

DAWSON J:  Now, you see, this is what I do not understand in

your submission. You are trying to give to the

Heritage Committee or whatever it is,the function of does. It gives it to the State parties the function of doing that.

deciding whether something is or is not or, conciusively
determined, that something is or is not part of the

MR GRIFFITH:  With respect, Your Honour, we say the question is

whether, in respect of this property, there is a matter

- if we are considering section 6(2)(b) - of international

obligation and our submission is, Your Honour, that when

it is listed it follows from the terms of the Convention

to which Australia and 109 countries are parties,made

for the purposes summarized in the preamble,that it is

a matter of obligation by Australia to preserve and

conserve that property.

DAWSON J: Well, what I am putting to you is that obligation

starts with delineation.

MR GRIFFITH: It:i~:the start of the process, Your Honour.

DAWSON J: Well, it does not start twice.
MR GRIFFITH:  Your Honour, we are considering it at the point

when it has been listed. The question before the

Court is what is the relevant inquiry? Now, our submission is, Your Honour, when it is listed, the

ambit of even possible inquiry is narrowed to the
point of the issues we have identified; whether or

not the property is identified; whether the

Governor-General is satisfied; whether or not it

comes validly within section 6(2). We say that is

the only inquiry, Your Honour, and what we say, in

effect, is that the issue of whether as an objective

fact the property is, in fact, of World Heritage

ClT30/l/SH 52 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

qualifications, for example, on the basis it has

threatened bird species, becomes a matter which is

irrelevant for the purpose of the Court being

satisfied as to the existence of the international

obligation and as to the valid reach and operation

of section 6(2). We say that further inquiry is
foreclosed. Now, there may be an opportunity for

further inquiry if it is not listed, if listing is

refused or if the examination is sought to take place before listing but, Your Honour, we submit when it is

listed, one looks at the position then and, at that

point, the Court is not excluded from inquiry but there are only a few issues, we submit, which are amenable to inquiry as to the issue of validity.

Those, we have identified and we say, having identified them and having, we would submit, Your Honour, ex facie shown that two are not in issue and the matter of

obligation would follow from the terms of the Convention

itself, the point is reached where, really, it is

indisputable that there can be further dispute.

DAWSON J: Well, I will not continue this but it does not seem

to me, reading the Convention, that - what is the name

of the conunittee - the World Heritage - - - ?

MR GRIFFITH:  World Heritage Conunittee.
DAWSON J:  - - - Conunittee sets itself up as the adjudicative

body upon the question as to whether something is
or is not part of the cultural heritage of a nation.

It leaves that to the nation itself.

MR GRIFFITH:  We submit it does that in respect of :ie issue

as to whether, for all purposes under the Convention,

it is World Heritage status. Unless you get through

that gateway from the conunittee, you only have

restricted status which is preserved by article 12,

namely, that you can assert that you have identified and delineated it and you, as a municipal government,

take the view it is of World Heritage status but,

Your Honour, we would submit that the negative question

of, "Well, what is the status of property which either

is not·listed or listing is refused or which is

delisted?" - delisted is possible, Your Honour - is not

a matter of inquiry when we have to, here, consider

the issue, "Well, what is the position in respect of

a property which has been listed?"

(Continued on page 54)

ClT30/2/SH . 53 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
MR GRIFFITH (continuing):  Your Honour, it is clear that a

property which either has not yet been listed,or

which is refused listing, or which is delisted,

is of lesser status under the Convention. But
we submit, Your Honour, when a property is
listed - - -

DAWSON J: What is the_llesser status? That it cannot receive

assistance?

MR GRIFFITH:  It cannot receive assistance, it cannot be put

on the list of pro'tected properties, Your Honour, and we would submit, Your Honour, there is - - -

DAWSON J: That is all, is it not?

MR GRIFFITH:  No, a further thing, with respec 4 Your Honour, we

say that there is a decreased international

perception that that property is one which comes
within the terms of the Convention where the

various co-operative ambits of the various articles

of the Convention attach. So that as a matter of

international concern and co-operation and

expressed obligation the 109 parties of the

Convention join together, really, Your Honour, we

would put it, altruistically for the good of the

world, to protect each and every of these listed

properties.

DAWSON J: It is not suggesting that it does seem-that the

property is delineated by a nation State, but

it does not make the heritage list, nevertheless,

there would not be sufficient international concern

power. to make it a subject of the external affairs
MR GRIFFITH:  So far as our CONSTITUTION is concerned.

Your Honour, we would say no, but that is - - -

BRENNAN J:  So far as section 6(2)(b) is concerned?

MR GRIFFITH: Yes, I am indebted to Your Honour, Your Honour.

We would say, Your Honour, that is a matter for
inquiry when that occasion arises. Now when the

~it··v?as-·issued in this matter, Your Honour, it was

at the-state of nomination only and there were

allegations made and it was necessary to consider in

what way should they be pleaded, should the matter

be brought before the court. The issue now

has been refined, Your Honour, that we are dealing

with it at a different stage,,.md we would submit

at one, Your Honour, where these matters which may

arguably have been disputable, without saying one

way or another whether they would, are, we would

submit, put beyond dispute by reference to the

fact of listing. For the moment we refer to

paragraph 6(2)(b) but we also, Your Honour, rely

on paragraph 6(2)(c) and 6(2)(d) which independently,

we would submit, support the validity of the

proclamation in this case.

ClT31/l/DR 54 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
McHUGH J:  Mr Solicitor, take a case where the

committee refuses to list a property because

it holds it does not have outstanding

universal value in respect of the terms of

its criteria. Obligations are still imposed

on Australia in that situation, are they not,

or may be in respect of that property?

MR GRIFFITH:  They may be, Your Honour, one

possibility is that Australia may revoke its

finding that it was world heritage.

McHUGH J:  Well, supposing, notwithstanding the

refusal to list, the Commonwealth Parliament

wants to enact some legislation to give effect

to its obligations? How then do you determine,

or who determines whether or not the property

is within article 1 or article 2?

MR GRIFFITH: 

Well, Your Honour, we would say that to put the case that could be made against it at its

highest, the relevant  inquiry could be no
wider than that adumbrated by Justice Brennan
in GERHARDY;_ whether one can say as a
possibility, ."Is this view one which could not
reasonably be had by the executive?" And,
having regard to the various matters of
political consideration, I think Your Honour
referred to BAKER V CARR, those various
elements there referred in , the Supreme court,
which might mitigate against interference and
we say that each of those matters which are
listed in BAKER V CARR would exist in this
case.  So that. one would have the matter of
discretion ~  to the eX.tent to which the Court
would invol v·" itself in reviewing a decision of
the executive - absent allegation of mala fides -
made by reference to these calculus of factors
that have been referred to.
Now that would mean, Your Honour, we would

submit on any view, the possible inquiry would

be very limited. It would not be one of

objective fact which is what the plaintiff's

primary allegation is here; we certainly cavil

at that.

(Continued on page 56)

ClT32/l/JH 55 9/5/89
Queens land ( 2.)
MR GRIFFITH (continuing):  Your Honour, without finally making

a submission on issue were it to arise, we would

submit it could be no more than the sort of limited
exposure that Justice Brennan indicated in GERHARDY.

It has been mentioned by other members of the Court

at various times.

DAWSON J: This is for the purpose of what?

MR GRIFFITH:  Your Honour, for the postulation of

Justice McHugh, if there were a nomination which were refused on its merits by the World Heritage

Committee and none the less Australi~ as the

nominating government, did not revoke its

determination - - -

DAWSON J:  So, it would apply if Australia delineated a

property, but did not seek to nominate it?

MR GRIFFITH: Yes, 'Your Honour, that is - - -

DAWSON J:  So that there is an examination of the delineation

process in some limited way, other than the examination

of bona fides of it, in your submission?

MR GRIFFITH:  Your Honour, in the particular circumstances

dealing with the operation of section 6(2) of the

Act, there may be Now Your Honour, if, for example,

in the situation there had been delineation but no

nomination, and we sought to assert the protection

or conservation as a matter of international obligation,

now, Your Honour, our primary argument would be the

fact that we have discharged our obligation to

delineate under article 3 would be sufficient to

establish the international obligation. Now, the Court would have to rule whether that is right or

wrong.

If we were not upheld on that, Your Honour, our second contention would be that the element of a

review of the determination be no further than the

limited scope for a review that was indicated by

Justice Brennan in GERHARDY.

DAWSON J: But that is a greater degree of review than there

would be of a decision of the World Heritage Cormnittee.

MR GRIFFITH:  Yes, Your Honour, what we submit is, that when

the World Heritage Committee has entered the property
on the list the matter of international obligation

becomes, in effect, absolute, for the purposes of

the valid operation of section 6(2). ·

(Continuea on paz~ 57)

ClT33/1/F°K

Queensland(2) 9/5/89

MR GRIFFITH (continuing): It is a case, Your Honour, where

this provision of the Act operates in respect

of not municipal law, in our submission, but
in respect of international law, not merely the
operation of the Convention but in respect of

the operation of the external relations between

Australia and foreign countries particularly

those who are parties to the Convention.

DAWSON J:  I simply do not follow that. The Convention

imposes the obligation on the nation to protect

its cultural and natural heritage whether or

not it is listed.

MR GRIFFITH:  We would submit, Your Honour, if it is not

listed our first submission would be that is

not disputable even then but our second submission

is that it could only be disputable in a narrow

category. As to the matters here we say,

Your Honour, that is not the issue before the

Court. It would have been the issue before the

Court if the property had not been listed.

DAWSON J: 

You do not see the connection but there may be a connection in my mind, that is why I am

asking the question.

MR GRIFFITH: Yes. Well, our primary submission, Your Honour,

would be that none the less the bona fide

identification would suffice for the valid operation

of section 6(2) in a proclamation made under

section 6(3) when the property was - - -

DAWSON J:  But I understood you to be saying there was

a degree of examination that could be made of

the delineation by the nation State of its natural

and cultural heritage which cannot be made at

the stage of listing.

MR GRIFFITH:  Your Honour, that is our fall-back position.
Our primary proposition - - -

DAWSON J: Is that what you say?

MR GRIFFITH: 

Your Honour, our primary proposition is that there would not be re-examination but our second

proposition would b~ if the Court ruled against
us on that, Your Honour, it would be very limited
re-examination.  But our primary proposition
is there would not be but what we say here,
Your Honour, whether that proposition is now
to be considered by the Court or not in respect
of listing,well then, Your Honour, we say it
becomes indisputable that the obligation is there
and that the provisions of section 6(2) validly
attach and we say 6(2)(b) has been found valid
by the Court and that there is really no mechanism
of entry by a municipal court into consideration
of the issue as to whether or not the obligations
which arise by the terms of the Convention attaches.
ClT34/l/AC 57 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
MR GRIFFITH (continuing):  We say it follows as a matter of

international law to which the Court abides.

BRENNAN J:  I confess the difficulty I have in your fall-back

position, Mr Solicitor, is that it seems to me that

the function of a State party in identifying and

delineating a property is a function which is

performed for the purposes of the international

convention and, if the fact is that it has delineated

the property, the international obligation attaches

but the fact of delineation is something which is

done in discharge of an international obligation

and is thoroughly unreviewable by a municipal court.

MR GRIFFITH:  Yes, well, Your Honour, perhaps I have not made

myself clear. That is our primary position. The

fall-back one was if the Court is against us on that

well, then, we say there is a narrow ambit of inquiry

but - - -

BRENNAN J:  I see. Well, what is the Court's function in
reviewing? To determine what?

MR GRIFFITH: 

Your Honour, we would submit in respect of the issue of a bona fide delineation, which is not the

case here because we say we have got beyond that, but
if it is merely a bona fide delineation, the Court's
function is very limited indeed. It is to consider
the issues of whether there has been delineation;
whether or not there is identified property; whether
or not the Governor-General can be satisfied under
section 6(3); whether or not, in the circumstances,
having regard to the terms of the Convention, it
can be said that there is a clear international
obligation on Australia to protect or conserve the
property and we would submit the answer to all those
questions must be "yes" in the circumstances postulated
and, in that case, we would submit that it is not
permissible for a litigant in this Court to say, "Yes,
but we wish to assert as a matter of fact or even as
a matter of whether it is reasonably possible, that
the executive could not have that view".

We submit, Your Honour, that is is sufficient that

the executive bona fide has done it and that establishes
the element of international obligation which attaches

by operation of the treaty.

(Continued on page 59)

ClT35/l/SH 58 9/5/89
Queensland~2)
DAWSON J:  So that at that stage there is no room for
a GERHARDY V BROWN test, even there?

MR GRIFFITH: No - Your Honour, I am sorry, I did not

make myself clear. That - - -

DAWSON J:  I am sorry, I may have been, proce.eding under
a false - - -

MR GRIFFITH: That is exactly what I was saying, Your Honour.

DAWSON J:  I thought you were saying that at that stage, at
the delineation stage, it was possible - as a
fall back position, you were putting it - it was
possib1e that the delineation might be contested

upon the basis that the property was not reasonably

capable of being considered part of the natural

cultural heritage.

MR GRIFFITH:  Your Honour, I apologize for not making myself
clear. By "fall back" I mean fall back if the

argument which we just put was not upheld by

the Court. Our primary argument would be the

one I just put.

DAWSON J:  So what you are really saying is the process
is not examinable either at the delineation
stage -subject to the fact of it being delineated
sufficiently and so on - not subject to examination
at that stage, or at the committee stage.

MR GRIFFITH: 

Your Honour, it is a question of what you mean by "the process".

We submit that the

Court may examine the process but there are
a limited number of questions that can be
asked.
DAWSON J:  !t can ask whether there is in fact a delineation.
MR GRIFFITH:  Yes.
DAWSON J: But what I am putting to you is there is no

stage at which you can ask whether the property

was reasonably capable of being considered a

part of the natural or cultural heritage. That

question cannot be asked at any stage. Is that

what you are putting?

MR GRIFFITH:  Your Honour, we put that in the context of

if there is an allegation of mala fides it is

different. So, for example - - -

DAWSON J: Putting mala fides on one side, is that what

you are saying?

MR GRIFFITH:  Yes, we do, Your Honour.
CIT36/l/JM 59 9/5/89
Queensland(2) (Continued on page 59A)

DAWSON J: Yes, well now I know.

MR GRIFFITH: But, Your Honour, we say that if one gets

to the point where one says you nominate because

there are birds there and as an objective
fact th~re are no birds at all, well, that

would obviously be getting to the issues of

mala £ides and that would be the issue. So it

is not a question of all possibility of any

consideration of the Court, but if it is made,

as we would say here, Your Honour, on the basis

of an obvious bona fide consideration by the

executive, we say that the role of the Court,

having regard to the terms of the Convention,

is very limited indeed to that extent.

DAWSON J: Yes, I follow.

(Continued on page 60)

CIT36/2/JM 59A 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
MR GRIFFITH:  Yes. Perhaps it was a bit of a mistake to

make as our starting point that we agreed with

the views of Justice Gaudron that there could

be an obligation in theory, even if the property

had not been identified. But we agree with

Your Honour Justice Dawson that there is no effective

content- to that and it could not be enforced
in any way. One could not come to any municipal

court, present a very strong overwhelming objective

case of world heritage status and get some declaration

that, pursuant to the terms of the Convention,

the Commonwealth was obliged to protect or conserve.

So we would agree that there is no effective

content before that.

We submit that - I think, probably we have

said sufficient about what we submit is the position

if the property has been identified by State

parties in accordance with Convention procedures
but we would submit it follows that Australia
is obliged to protect and conserve and that was

stated by Your Honour Justice Brennan in TASMANIAN DAM at page 228. In this case the identification

by Australia was reflected in the nomination

for listing but our submission is that the point

here is a separate point and that is whether

one may say indisputably that there is an obligation
that one can see in respect of the application

of section 6(2)(b),an international obligation

in respect of a properlty which, in accordance
with Convention procedures, has been entered

on the World Heritage List, and we refer to

Your Honour Justice Deane using the word

"indisputably" in that context.

Of course, we do not just rely on that as

saying, "Therefore we have authority that it

is indisputable", but we submit that the approach,

really, inherent in Your Honour's observation

does reflect what is, in truth, the position

in respect of what is the situation when one

T37 considers the issue upon listing.

DEANE J: Is not the point this, that the committee entrusted

by the Convention to which Australia is a party

with deciding what is World Heritage of outstanding

universal value has decided that a particular

property is property to which the Convention

applies?

MR GRIFFITH:  Yes, Your Honour.
DEANE J:  Which, in terms of international obligation,
must be the end of the question?
C 1T38/1 /ND 60 9/5/89

Queensland(2)

MR GRIFFITH:  Yes.
DEANE J:  Presuming bona fides?
MR GRIFFITH:  Yes.
MASON CJ:  On that triumphant note, we might adjourn,

Mr Solicitor, and resume at 2. 15.

AT 12.46 PM LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT

C1T38/2/ND 61 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

UPON RESUMING AT 2.15 PM:

MR GRIFFITH: 

May I pick up Your Honour Justice McHugh's question before lunch as to what would be the position if

World Heritage listing was refused and Australia,
as a State party, maintained its identification? The
answer would seem to be to that, Your Honour, and I
am sorry to have overlooked it in answering this
morning, but the structure of the Act is to deal with
that situation and, if I could take the Court briefly
to section 3A on page 3 of the book of the Act, the
definition of "identified property" in 3A(l) is in a serial form;
that it covers first the property in a RICHARDSON
situation; secondly property which:

is subject to World Heritage List nomination -

which was the situation of this property at the time

of issue of the writ in December 1987. Thirdly, to

provide that it includes:

property included in the World Heritage List

provided for in paragraph of Article 11 of the

Convention.

So that, on listing, the property would contine as

identified property because it comes under paragraph (iii).

and paragraph (iii) alone. Then paragraph (iv) has
a provision that: 

property forms part of the ..... he~itage .....

and is declared by the regulations to form

part of the cultural heritage or natural

heritage.

Subsection (3) provides that:

For the purposes of subparagraph (l)(a)(ii),

where the Commonwealth has ...... submitted property ..... whether before or after the
commencement of this Act, as suitable for
inclusion ..... the property shall be taken
subject to World Heritage List nomination
from the time of its submission until the
end of 7 days after the day on which the

Committee informs, or first informs, Australia that it has included or decided not to include

the whole or any part of the property in the list.

(Continued on page 63)

ClT39/l/VH 62 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
MR GRIFFITH (continuing):  Now, if the Committee

informs Australia that it has included it,

well then presumbly the property will come

under (iii). If it is not included, well

then it would cease to come under

paragraph(ii),'.3.t the expiration of seven days

and in that way would cease to be identified

property. And, subsection (4) provides
that where: 
(a) any Proclamation under subsection 6(3)
or section 7, and any regulation for
the purposes of subsection 9(1) or
paragraph 10(2)(m), in relation to
the property or any part of the
property ceases to be in force; and
(b) any Proclamation under subsection 8(3),
and any regulation for the purposes
of paragraph ll(l)(j), in relation
to a site being, or situated within,
the property ceases to be in force.

So it would then follow that if listing was

declined by the World Heritage Committee, the
property would cease to be identified property

within the meaning of the Act and the

proclamation and the regulations would cease

to be in force. So that it could be seen that

the scheme of the Act, we would submit, is that

the Parliament has by this scheme confirmed

the status of the aommittee to determine, in
respect of identified property, whether it is
to continue to be regarded as identified

property; if it is not listed, well then the

identification by Australia effectively falls

away because the regime of protection and

conservation which could be implemented under

the Act cannot apply; it ceases to be

identified property.

McHUGH J:  What about subparagraph (iv) section 3A(l)(a)?
MR GRIFFITH:  Your Honour, that would seem to be a

different mechanism that is not covered by
subsection (3). Subsection (ii~)seems to pick up
the transition from (i), (ii) and (iii) in the

event that there is not listing.

ClT40/l/JH 63 9/5/89
Queensland(2).
MR GRIFFITH (continuing):  So that I suppose one could

say, Your Honour, it does not apply here, but there

is a possibility that (iv) could be asserted to apply

as supporting a proclamation.

McHUGH J: Yes. What I really had in mind, Mr Solicitor, was

a question of Australia enacting legislation to give

effect to its treaty obligations in respect of

relevant property even though the property was not

included on the World List.

MR GRIFFITH:  And had not been nominated.

McHUGH J: Well, had been nominated or had been rejected.

MR GRIFFITH:  If it had been nominated, Your Honour,

there is no difficulty because they come under

3A(i)(a)(ii) in any event.

McHUGH J: Yes, I know,but what about the question of identifying

the property? Would that be an objective test in those

situations? I think your answer is -

MR GRIFFITH:  We have already answered that, in effect, Your Honour.

that "no" -

McHUGH J: Yes.

MR GRIFFITH:  - - - and, if we are wrong on that, then only at

the very limited level of inquiry that we identified

by reference to Justice Brennan's remarks in GERHARDY.

McHUGH J:  Bu4 if it is a subjective matter from the beginning,

what does it matter that, ultimately, you include it

on the World Heritage List?

MR GRIFFITH: Well, Your Honour, it matters for the legislative

scheme that it does not because what we say is that

the Convention deals with matters of international

obligation. Although one aspect is identification

by State parties, we say the essential aspect of the

Convention is the matter of international co·-operation

which has as its point of transmission to the

international arena to test international obligation,

international benefit, the question of listing.

(Continued on page 65)

ClT41/l/SH . 64 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

MR GRIFFITH (continuing): That is the access point to

world perception by the State parties - now 109

State parties - under the operations of the

Convention, and all the various aspects which

one sees adumbrated by the preamble, the intention

of the Convention to provide a climate and a
regime of international co-operation to protect
the World Heritage in effect. Now, I suppose
one could express it on the basis of going to

the ultimate issue of world co-operation peace

in effect, that countries are establishing it

as a matter of international commitment; that they desire to have a regime by co-operation, not just acting alone, which preserves these

identified parts of cultural and natural heritage

meeting the strict, although in the terms of the Convention itself, undefined criteria of having this universal and outstanding value. We say, Your Honour, that it is the function of the World Heritage Committee and the actions

of the State parties since the inception of the

Convention which have given content and refined

definition to this definition.

We say, Your Honour, that was the intention

of the parties and the carrying through of that

intention is, as we submit, a matter of international

law, Your Honour, something that this Court can

take cognizance of. In effect our submission,

Your Honour, is that the manner in which the

World Heritage Committee and the State parties

to the Convention have operated the treaty becomes

in itself a mechanism whereby the Court can

· interpret the treaty and discern the reaches

of its obligations. As to Your Honour's specific

point on paragraph (iv), we see the point of

Your Honour's observation but as with many issues

that arise, particularly with constitutional

reform, Your Honours, it is perhaps best left

for when they arise. The statutory regime here

seems to be one connected with the process so

far as paragraphs (i), (ii) and (iii) are concerned
and we go no further in this case to the steps

leading to consideration by the committee and

that would seem to be decisive for continuing

of the regime. There is no further decision

by the executive in the event of refusal to list.

It would have ended seven days after 9 December.

(Continued on page 66)

ClT42/1/Ac· 65 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

MR GRIFFITH (continuing): The proclamation then would cease

to have effect and the regulations prohibiting

logging would cease to have effect. Naturally

there is a seven day period to enable consideration

to be given to transition matters. So that our

position is that whilst the inclusion of the

property in the World Heritage does not impose

any new obligation, nevertheless, the fact of

listing by the World Heritage Committee, in our

submission, in itself sufficiently establishes

the property is subject to the obligations and,

we would submit, that the international obligation

to orotect and conserve means that it is not

dep~ndent on nominational listing, but that

further inquiry as to its existence becomes

irrelevant.

We turn now to consider what does listing

signify and our submission is that it signifies,

firstly,for all Convention purposes, the status of

the property as part of the heritage within the

meaning of articles 1 and 2, we say is indisputably

established. And, secondly, we say that the property

is to be treate~ for all Convention purposes, as

property to which the nominating party is obliged

to protect. So, to draw that together~ our

submission is, on any view, listing in itself

establishes that Australia has an international obligation to conserve and protect the property.

Dealing with the heritage status of the property, we submit that article 11. 2 envisages

that the World Heritage List contains properties

which are part of the cultural or natural heritage within articles .1 and 2, and, are

considered by the Connnittee as having outstanding

universal value in terms of the criteria established

under article 11.5. The definitions in articles 1 and 2

refer to physical features which are:

for various points of view. And our submissions is, of outstanding universal value,

that the criteria, established under the guidelines

which one finds on page 291 of volume 2 of the

case stated book, are not separate from or

cumulative upon the criteria implicit in articles 1 and 2

bu~ in our submission, are intended to provide an

objective indication, an objective international

standard, for giving content to the imprecise

criterion'bf outstanding universal value".

ClT43/l/DR 66 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
MR GRIFFITH (continuing):  I have already referred the

Court to paragraph 14 of the experts' report in

1972 which indicated that, intentionally, no

definition was included in the Convention.

Article 11.2 requires the committee to consider

"outstanding universal value" of a property in

terms of the criteria established under article 11.

So the Convention itself contemplates this process

and we submit that the expression "outstanding

universal value!! has the same meaning in article 11.2

as it does in articles 1 and 2. So that the

criteria established under articles 11.5, we submit,

are the means provided by the Convention by which

the World Heritage Committee is directed to assess

whether features identified by State parties as

falling within articles 1 and 2 will be considered by

the Committee as having the requisite'butstanding

universal value".

So, on this view the Committee's consideration

of "outstanding universal value" of a property, in
terms of the criteria, is the process by which
World Heritage status of the property under

articles 1 and 2 of the Convention is established

of the duty of the State party under article 3, but

to the satisfaction of the international community.

we submit that there is a significance beyond merely

saying that there is access to assistance under the

Convention by the listing process - that one can say

then, for the purposes of international law, the
operation of the Convention, it is established to

the satisfaction of the State parties and the

international community, that the property does have

the requisite World Heritage status.

In other words, international law, here it is

a convention itself, provides, we submit, the method

for determining Heritage status and that, we submit,

gives a firm basis for the clear assumption in

articles 6.2, 12, 13, 20 and 22(a), that properties

included in the World Heritage List necessarily form

part of the cultural or·.natiral heritage within

articles 1 and 2. And, we submit that each of those

articles mentioned clearly must be construed on that

basis.

So that, in this context, article 12 simply makes

clear that non-inclusion of a property submitted to the

World Heritage Committee does not prejudice a State's

own national assessment under article 3 from which

international obligations, for example, under article 5,

will flow.

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MR GRIFFITH (continuing):  And it is our submission that

article 12 in effect provides an element of

consolation in respect to properties where

World Heritage listing in refused by reference

to the criteria and by the consideration and

recommendations of the IUCN or the Bureau and

the World Heritage Committee, so that the basic

purpose of the Convention none the less can be

served; that State parties still are able to act

in the position that it is appropriate for them to take

steps in respect of the protection of those

properties which they have unsuccessfully nominated.

We have already referred to the fact that, in

our submission, this construction, for which we submit

is supported by the preamble, and I have referred the

Court to page 7 of our defendant's supplementary materials, article 31(1) of the Vienna Convention

on the Law of Treaties, which we say would reflect

in any event the customary international law;

that regard may be had to the object and purpose

of the Convention which may be discerned from,

amongst other places, the preamble.

In respect of this Convention, the travaux

are largely unhelpful, but the Court has already been
referred by both my learned friend and myself to

the report of the expert committee. I have referred

to paragraph 14 on page 12 of our volume of materials

and the other two paragraphs we particularly refer

to are paragraph 17 on page 13, where the second-last

sentence says:

Each State Party may of course regard a

property that is part of its cultural heritage

or some part of its natural heritage as being
of outstanding universal value, although it

may not be considered as such for all the

purposes of the Convention - that is, it may

not be included in one of the two lists

provided for in Article 11. This is stated

explicitly in Article 12.

And the comment on article 11 in paragraph 28 of the

report, which is on page 15, provides:

This is one of the most important provisions

of the Convention, since it assigns to the

World Heritage Committee the task of

establishing two separate lists of property of outstanding universal value forming part of the world heritage ..... .

A "World Heritage List" of all the properties

of the cultural and natural heritage which

the Committee considers as having outstanding

universal value in terms of such criteria as

it shall be called upon to establish;

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And, of course, we know from article 11~2 itself

that it was intended that criteria would be established.

But we would submit that it is a natural inference

from these travaux that at least those drafting the Convention considered that property included in the

World Heritage list under article 11.2 would

necessarily be considered as part of the cultural

and natural heritage for all the purposes of the

Convention.

We submit that the content of the operational

guidelines and also the practice of the World
Heritage Committee and of the State parties to
the Convention is also relevant to the construction

of article 11~2~ We refer again to page 7 of the

book of supplementary materials, in particle

article 31 of the Vienna Convention, paragraph 3,

which says:

There shall be taken into account, together

with the context:

.....

(b) any subsequent practice in the application

of the treaty which establishes the agreement

of the parties regarding its interpretation.

And we would submit that that provision itself,

of course, is merely confirmatory of the common law,

and, as to that aspect of subsequent practice, we

have in our materials two references to decisions

of the International Court in respect to regard

being had to practice. I do not think it is necessary

for me to take the Court to the detail of those two reports; page references are given but in each case the International Court of Justice had reference to,

in the first case, the practice of the General Assembly,
and in the second case, dealing with the Maritime
Safety Committee.. to the practice of its assembly

to consider shipping by reference to tonnage rather

than any other criterion and regarded that prac_tice

as a relevant matter in construing what otherwise

were ambiguous words in the Convention. (Continued on page 70)
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MR GRIFFITH (continuing):  As we have indicated, we submit

that this practice is exemplified in the UNESCO

publication which we attach as document 4, commencing

on page 32 of the materials and we have referred the

Court particularly to pages63 and 67 which, we say,

summarizes this approach as being the role - and

as I also referred to this morning, the article by

the agreed role - of the World Heritage Committee and, in addition to the reference I gave this morning,

on page 74 of the materials, in the rigpt:-,hand-column
of page 73, Professor Slatyer said:

The Committee has four main tasks. First

it has the task of assessing and either accepting
or rejecting properties nominated by various

countries for inscription on the world heritage

list.

Then, in the left-hand column on page 74, he refers

to the fact that::

In fulfilling this role the Committee

realized at its first session that it needed

to generate rules of procedure and operational

guidelines to provide a firm basis for its

activities and to ensure that it acted in an

objective and professional manner.

He refers to the time spent in evolving those guidelines

and also to the role, particularly of the IUCN and

ICOMOS in respect of cultural heritage. We say that

that is, perhaps, not a deep but it is a convenient

contemporary summary of the perception and practice

of the State parties as to the operation of the listing
process.

The Court has been referred briefly to the guidelines set out on page 291 and following of

volume 2 of the case book. We desire to make a

few references supplemental to those made by my

learned friend, Mr Davies,and I should indicate that

our references are sununarized on pages 6 and 7 of

the annexure to our contentions. We have annexed

to our contentions a document which has, as its first

page, a table procedure for processing nomination.

That, in itself, is derived from the guidelines which

are found on pages 308 to 310 of volume 2 of the materials

and it may be of assistance in looking at this material

if I hand to the Court a separate photocopy of page 290

of the case stated book which is a glossary of

international organizations. Although it is in the

book, it is quite useful to haveitas a separate sheet to work out who the parties are. Of course, we know who the committee is; that is established by the

Convention. The Secretariat is just what it says,
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the Secretariat established under article 14 to

service the cormnittee, based in Paris. The World

Heritage Bureau is the executive members of the

cormnittee, its chairman, five vice chairmen, each

from the representative national grouping and a

rapporteur and that, really, is vested with the

functions of the cormnittee between meetings and

one of its principal tasks:

is to assess new nominations ..... and to make

recormnendations to the Cormnittee.

And we see that that occurred in this case and, in
fact, it is contemplated by the process of consideration

that one sees surmnarized on page 308 to 310. Then we have reference to the IUCN which is the only relevant

referring body here because, as I mentioned, although

the nomination had a reference to cultural heritage,

in fact it would seem that there was no independent

reference to that in the listing process and: if there

had been, it would be the International Council of

Monuments and Sites that would have had consideration

of those so that they seem to be the central bodies

and, when one looks at the chart which is the first

page of the annexure to the contentions, one sees
that on the left-hand column, the normal timetable;
right-hand column indicating that basically the

timetable was complied with here.

BRENNAN J:  What is this taking us to, Mr Solicitor?

MR GRIFFITH: 

Your Honour, what I wish to establish is that the guidelines involve a deep consideration of the merits and an expert, independent, qualitative assessment of the World Heritage status for the purpose of

international recognition under the Convention.

(Continued on page 72)

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MR GRIFFITH (continuing):  By establishing the depth

of that inquiry, Your Honour, we seek to

reinforce our contention that that, on any view,

must be regarded as sufficient to establish

aspects of international obligation. It may be,

Your Honour, that it is otiose to reinforce it,

but, in our submission, it is appropriate to
demonstrate the depth of consideration on the

merit to overcome the suggestion that it is

merely a matter of secondary aspect dealing with

the issue of eligibility to financial and

other assistance. In our submission, Your Honour,

that is not the nature of the mechanism established

by the Convention; the nature of the mechanism is

to establish for the purpose of, in effect,

international law and international co-operation

the absolute status of the property to be regarded

as between the State parties and also by other

international parties and bodies. For that reason,

Your Honour, we submit that it is relevant to look

at the merit - quickly, it does not take very

long, Your Honour.

So far as the establishment of criteria are

concerned, Your Honour, paragraph 6 on page 294

of Volume 2 sunm1arizes the general principle

as to the Convention providing:

for the protection of those cultural and
natural properties deemed to be of

outstanding -universal value.

It indicates:

It is not intended to provide for the

protection of all properties of great

interest, importance or value, but only for

a select list of the most outstanding of these

from an international viewpoint.

It refers to the fact that the definition of

articles 1 and 2 were:

were interpreted by the Conm1ittee by using

two sets of criteria -

which are, of course, set out in paragraphs 21 and

33 below.

Paragraph 9 on page 295, the next page,

says:

The fundamental principle stipulated in

the Convention is that properties nominated

must be of outstanding universal-value and

the properties nominated therefore should be

carefully selected.

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And then it. refers again to the criteria.

Paragraph 7, further up the page, encourages the

State parties to submit tentative lists,which

can be the subject of further consideration as

to whether they should be regarded, of the requisite

status.

In paragraphs 15 and 16 also, there are

statements emphasizing the requirement of universal
value. In paragraph 21 there is a definition of
"cultural value" which we need not be concerned
with. Paragraph 33 is the particular paragraph
dealing with World Heritage as natural heritage.

My learned friend has perhaps sufficiently referred

the Court to the aspects of integrity required

in paragraph 3~ and in subparagraph (iii) the four

different possibilities as to categories for

qualification. Of course, it has been seen t.ha t the

case as here - the particular property here - was accepted

by IUCN, by the bureau and by the World Heritage

Committee as meeting all four requirements.

Paragraph 44 on page 304 refers to the

fact that the:

List should be as representative as possible of all cultural and natural properties which

meet the Convention's requirement of

outstanding universal value and the cultural

and natural criteria adopted by the Committee.

This information is required by paragraph 50 on

page 306 to be included in the nomination form.

(Continued on page 74)

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MR GRIFFITH (continuing):  So that we submit that these

guidelines confirm that the committee's task

is to evaluate the outstanding universal value

as is provided for in articles 1 and 2 and it

establishes a legal status and administrative

framework. And one sees that in paragraph 50

in particular of the guidelines to show that the
connnittee has regard to the ability of a State

to fulfil its obligations in relation to the

property under articles 4 and 5.

We submit that the actual nomination process for this property demonstrates a course

of listing by careful, international evaluation
of the heritage values of the property by

reference to the committee's published guidelines

and interpretations of the definitions of
heritage. And this process reflects the high
level of care and expertise recognized by

international law and we refer particularly to

articles 8, 9 and 10 of the Convention leading to

an evaluation which the State parties have agreed

by their accession to the Convention to accept.

We would then take the Court briefly to

the chronology of nomination and listing which

occurred in this case. It is quite conveniently

summarized in our annexure to the submissions

so that for the purpose of this quick review it

is probably not necessary for me to take the Court

to long passages of the materials. But, if we

could indicate to the Court that we do rely, and

we particularly refer in the following few pages

of this annexure, to the particular parts which

indicate detailed, qualified and informed

consideration and dispassionate consideration on the merits of the property as qualifying to meet the requisite criteria of being both outstanding

and universal in its natural heritage

characteristics.

The nomination as my learned friend referred to, 23 December 1987, on pages 11 and 12

of volume 1, the property is identified

by reference primarily to natural heritage. The
Convention definitions are set out in full in

the nomination form but, on page 27, there is an

assertion which was vindicated that the

nomination was justified on the grounds of

fulfilling all four criteria - those criteria,

as I mentioned, are set out in pages 25 and 26.

And the requirement of the form that the
nomination make a statement of their significance

is met on pages 27 to 38 which details asserted

qualification on each of the four heads, although

of course, only one suffices. As to that

ClT48/l/JH 74 9/5/89
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nomination, in May there was a technical

review of the nomination by the IUCN, which

appears on pages 147 to 159 and there is a

description on page 147 of the manner of and

who took out that technical review, that it

was by reference to the operational guidelines. guidelines dealing with natural heritage alone - and refers to a review of that field-work by

a panel from IUCN's policy and programme

division. In the result at page 148, one sees

the view taken of qualification. There is a

summary at pages 149 to 151 of the nomination,

a technical evalution on pages 153 to 159

which raise questions about human impact,

boundaries, management capability and it was

said in passing on page 158 that the

nomination was the most comprehensive ever

received for natural world heritage. At
page 158, the IUCN concludes that: 

The property in general terms

therefore merits inscription on the

World Heritage list on the basis of -

each of the four natural heritage criteria.

At page 159 appears the recorrn:nendation

that the site should be inscribed subject to

specified amendmentsand clarifications.

(Continued on page 76)

ClT48/2/JH 75 9/5/89
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MR GRIFFITH (continuing):  At the meeting of the Bureau,

which is the chairman, vice-presidents and the

rapporteur, on 14 to 17 June, one picks it up
from page 160 and following of volume 1 - the

participants are listed on pages 175 to 176 -

representatives of the IUCN:

attended the meeting in an advisory capacity -

as they are entitled to under article 8. One

sees that on page 160. The report makes a note

about the status of the Convention, also on 160,

and the Bureau recommended that it should inscribe

the property relying on criteria (i) to (iv).

In this case at the meeting one picks up

that of the 43 nominations examined by the Bureau

26 were recommended for inscription - page 163.

And on page 169 one picks up that four positively

were not recommended so that, in effect, they

were refused and those nominating them, of course,

would be able to rely on article 12 in respect

of measures other than matters arising from

inscription under the Convention. Those matters

concern the Hortobagy National Park in Hungary,

which one sees is nomination 474 on page 169;

the SS "Great Britain" which seemed to be in

difficulties because it was an immovable "likely
to become a movable"; Navan Fort which was refused

on the basis, one would think, that it just did

not come up to the criteria; and, Menai and Conwy

suspension bridges which were regarded as not

meeting the criteria as to authenticity. So

that one can see that the committee acts both to refuse and to defer, one sees that also in

these relevant pages, as well as to accept.

In September 1988 Australia responded to

the Bureau's request, dealing particularly with
the issues of boundaries, private land and management,

and one picks that up on page 181 and following.

There was an extensive review of the boundaries,

67 individual areas were examined and there was

some alterations of the boundary. There is a

lot of material in volume 1 dealing with that

issue of review of the boundaries.

In October 1988 there was a revised technical

evaluation by the IUCN - page 282, and in that
evaluation the IUCN reiterated a few of the property

merits of inscription - page 28 7, and recommended

the nomination be approved - page 288.

In December 1988 came the final recommendation

of the World Heritage Bureau - one picks that

up on page 289, where the Bureau recommended

to the full committee that:

ClT49/l/AC 76 9/5/89
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taking into account the revised evaluation

by IUCN and additional information provided

bv Australia ..... the Bureau recommends

that the Committee inscribe the property.

The meeting of the committee occurred on
7 December 1988 - one sees a transcript of that

on page 325 to 337. And,as referred to by my

learned friend in passing, it is clear that the

representative officer, Dr Thorsell of the IUCN,

at page 325 and at other stages throughout this

transcript, expressed a very strong view as to
the qualification of the property. In the first

paragraph on page 325 it says it is:

one of the top five that I've been most

impressed by in terms of its overall natural

quality.

He then says in the next paragraph it qualifies

at all four categories. The last two sentences

of that page, he says:

This all adds up to immense importance

for the area for science and conservation

interests. And our conclusion is, in the

report, that it is one of the most significant

regional ecosystems in the world contained

in this nomination.

(Continued on page 78)

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MR GRIFFITH (continuing):  He makes other connnents in passing

about:

superlative scenery and its unique meeting

of rainforest and mountain slopes coming

down to the Great Barrier Reef-

and refers, on page 326 to:

very high merit on the site -

333, perhaps an inelegant expression:

an exceptionally unique area -

he thought. And at pages328and 329, the relevant

officer of the secretariat read out the
reconnnendation of the Bureau, in English because

there was an anglican State party involved,

saying: "The recommendations", and then she

reads the reconnnendation that it be inscribed
on the basis that there be a monitor of

conservation over the next two years.

One finds that the Connnittee, having

debated that to page 337, at page 337, there

being no further debate on the usual unanimous

basis,the Chairman said:

We accept the inscription of the Property

to the World Heritage List. The inscription
is accepted.

And it is our submission, although perhaps it is

not necessary for the purpose of our submissions

but when one looks at the conduct of the State

party one sees an independent and rigorous

application of the definitions of articles 1 and 2

as articulated by the practice of State parties

and the adoption of the guidelines in respect of

the acceptance of this property as being inscribed

on the list as complying with the requirements

for World Heritage.

It is possible that our primary submission

that the definitions applied by the guidelines are

equated to the expression referred to -welLnot

really defined but identified in articles 1 and 2

so that they mean the same things that inscription

on the list means that the property is accepted

as meeting the requirements for World Heritage of

articles 1 and 2 and not more. An alternative

construction of article 11.2 might be, we doubt

that it is but we have suggested it as a possibility,

that the World Heritage Connnittee is required by
article 11.2, not only to inquire as to whether

the property has "outstanding universal value" in

ClTS0/1/DR 78 9/5/89
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terms of the criteria in articles 1 and 2, but to

itself consider whether it has independently

outstanding universal value in terms of its own criteria. So that if one adopted that approach

one would say that the inquiry in terms of the

criteria established by the ~ommittee under

article 11.5 would subsume the inquiry as to
world heritage status under articles 1 and 2.

So that one could perhaps then postulate that the function·of the corrnnittee is to choose from

properties submitted, which come within articles 1

and 2.Those of which are superlative and worthy

of special attention on the basis that the greater

includes the lesser and, I suppose,possibly some

support for that construction could be derived

from article 12, which indicates the lesser remains

"for purposes other than" issues arising from the

consequence of inscription on the list. It is our

submission that that construction is not the

preferred construction.

We would submit that the terms of the

Convention, the course of practice of the State parties, the terms of consideration by, which are

exampled by the course of consideration in this

case and the articulation of the criteria, are all
derivedto give content to the deliberately undefined

expressions of definition in articles 1 and 2.

(Continued on page 80)

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l1R GRIFFITH (continuing): But, having said we prefer the

former approach, we submit that whatever approach

is adopted, the decision to list necessarily

involves a determination by the Committee that

the property forms part of the world cultural or

natural heritage as defined by articles 1 and 2.

We submit that this of itself is of international

significance. The c0mmittee is a body on which

the State parties have, as a matter of international

law under the Convention, conferred the task of

evaluating the properties. Even, we submit, if the

view of the committee were considered to be wrong,

the existence of the international obligation

would be unaffected.

Further, we submit that the Convention in the international community proceed on the basis

that listed properties necessarily form part of

the heritage as defined. I have referred already
to articles 6.2, 11.2, 12, 13, 20 and 22A. Even

if it was only an assumption that the property
has been correctly identified under article 3 by

the nominating party, we submit that the assumption

is itself sufficient for the purpose of Australian

law to determine the issue of international

obligation and to exclude inquiries to the objective

fact as to whether or not the Court would itself,

were it to consider the issue, regard the property

as world heritage.

We say it is sufficient that the international

perception gives rise to the international

obligation to protect and conserve and one need not

say there is then an independent issue as to the

truth of the facts underlying the perception. Further,

one could say that, because the obligation to identify

part of the heritage has been performed bona fide

on behalf of Australia by the executive and accepted

and acted upon by the international community, we

say that it is now quite inappropriate for that issue

to be questioned by a domestic court. Perhaps it is

putting it in other words to say the obligation is

sufficiently established by the fact of listing

independently of determination of world lieritage

status.

Now, in our contentions we say on paragraph 4

that we put our central argument in two ways. To

some extent I think we have said almost all we wish

to say on the first approach and we have already said much of what we intend to say on the second

approach. B~t, looking to the second approach,

paragraph (b) of the contention 4 and that is
picked up on paragraph 8 and following on page 3

of the contentions, our argument is that inclusion

of the property on the list constitutes an international

acknowledgment of the status of the property which

itself is sufficient to impose on the nominating

party the obligation of conservation and protection

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under articles 4 and 5(d). We say although the Convention partly achieves its aims by imposing

duties of identification and protection upon the

State parties at the national level, particularly

articles 3, 4 and 5, an essential purpose of the

Convention is the participation of the international

community as a whole in the protection and

recognition of the cultural and natural heritage

and to this end to establish an effective system

of collective protection, one picks this up from

the eighth and ninth paragraphs of the preamble

and one finds these aims expressed specifically

in article 6 and 7 and also in the scheme

of international co-operation and assistance

established by articles 8 to 29, where one has the

World Heritage Committee, the two lists, the

World Heritage Fund, international assistance, educationalprogrammes and reporting. All those

mechanisms, we submit, are established to create,

as a matter of international co-operation, and

most certainly international concern, a regime

for the recognition and protection of these

outstanding elements of the world's heritage.

Of course, at the national level, States parties

have positive duties to identify, delineate, protect

et cetera. But we submit that there is also a

positive duty under article 11.1 to submit to the

World Heritage committee an inventory of property

forming part of the heritage. That is one of the

obligations of a State party. And, of course, when
one looks at section 3A of the Act one sees, at

least in paragraphs (i) to (iii) of the first

subsection, a reflection of that is that the

mechanism is one leading to a process of identification,

nomination and listing.

(Continued on page 82)

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MR GRIFFITH (continuing): In other words, recognizing the

obligation under article 11, to take positive steps

to provide a list to engage the process of

international co-operation for identification and

protection by submitting a list of properties for

inclusion. And I refer briefly to the guidelines,

I think it was paragraph 7, indicating that it was

also contemplated there would be a preliminary list

of possible nominations.

The level of national state protection is not

altered, of course, by inclusion of the property on

the World Heritage List, but the level of international

protection is enhanced. When one looks at article 6.1

and article 6.2. one can see this. The State parties

are under a positive obligation to give their help in

the protection and conservation of the heritage, but

only if the property is on one of the two lists and,

of course, if the State on whose territory the

property is situated request. So, that is the

trigger mechanism, not only for entitlement to call
for assistance but the reciprocating positive

obligation to give it.

BRENNAN J:  Mr Solicitor, could the question ever arise in

litigation in the international field, at the

international level?

MR GRIFFITH:  The question of international obligation to

protect?

BRENNAN J: Yes. And, if so could it involve a challenge to

the validity of the listing?

MR GRIFFITH:. Well, Your Honour, firstly, there is some mechanism

to deal with what happens when the protection is not

carried out. One element of that is in the

guidelines on pages 302 to 303 - there are provisions

for delisting if there is an erosion of status. So

that is one response of the Convention - the way it

works by the State parties. There is no specific

article providing for it, but the way it works, in

practice, Your Honour, is that there is a mechanism to

remove from the entitlement - remove from the, I suppose,

the element of obligation to assist if there is an

erosion in status. And then there is other mechanisms

provided in the quidelines to counsel and help

prevent that happening if it looks like a risk.

Now, Your Honour, it is a matter of different

question whether, if there was a straight assertion

that a party was in breach of its obligation and a

party sought to avoid that consequence ly, for example,

asserting that the property was not, in fact, World

Heritage status. Now, Your Honours, the matter of

jurisdiction, it would depend, I suppose, on

questions of submission to the jurisdiction of the

International Court of Justice whether the parties

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would agree.to resolve the issue, for example, by

reference to the permanent court of arbitration,

or take some other mechanism. But, it would be

a matter of the ordinary operation of international

law if there were a dispute.

But, we would submit, Your Honour, that the issue really here is more the question of perceptions in international law - that the fact of inscription, in our submission, elevates

the property to an absolute status for the purpose of recognition of a status, recognition of duty on the State party, who has both identified the.property

and in whose territory the property is, and also

identifies matters of entitlement, both to technical

and financial assistance, matters of obligation on

parties to assist if they are called upon to do it

and those other matters.

But, Your Honours,we would suppose it could

not be said that there must be an immediate
enforceable right in the International Court - it

would depend on all the usual factors of jurisdiction,

but we would submit, Your Honour, that as a matter of

analysis, it would be possible to say there was

breach of obligation if there was a derogation

established as a matter of fact from the stated obligation in respect of identified properties.

Now, as to whether there would be difficulties if

the property were not listed, but was identified

under article 1 and 2, perhaps, one could say, there

may be more difficulties there, Your Honour, but

the Convention would operate according to its terms.

When one looks at the basic structure of the

mechanism of the implementation in Australia,

Your Honour, one sees in cases such as

TASMANIAN DAM and RICHARDSON, this case demonstrate

a course of identification, nomination, listing,

with the Act contemplating if it is not listed, well

then the element of protection, which could be

implemented under the Act, falling away, not because

of constitutional power, but because the Act does not

provide for it to remain.

(Continued on page 84)

ClT52/2/FK 83 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
MR GRIFFITH (continuing):  We submit that the inclusion

in the list is a precondition to the State on

whose territory the property is situated becoming

eligible for direct international assistance.

That is articles 13, 20 and 22. Of course,

article 13.1 imposes on the cormnittee a duty

to study requests for assistance but confined

only to property either included or potentially

suitable for inclusion in the list. There is

an exception under article 13.2, but subject
to some exceptions article 20 specifically

provides:

international assistance provided for

by this Convention may be granted only

to property ..... which the World Heritage Cormnittee has decided, or may decide, to

enter in ..... the lists.

Since the international scheme of co-operation

established by articles 6 to 28 has as part of

its essential mechanism the inclusion of the

property on the World Heritage List and since
parties are obliged to submit properties in

inclusion in the list, and since the

international scheme of co-operation is designed

to complement and support the actions of State

parties in their efforts to conserve and identify

the heritage - and one picks that up from the

preambles, as I mentioned, eighth and nine -

paragraph of the preambles and article 7,

we would submit that it must follow that the

inclusion of the property on the list is conclusive

of the existence of international obligation in

respect of the property.

If we could refer to what Your Honour

Justice Brennan said in the TASMANIAN DAM case,

158 CLR at page 226. Your Honour said:
what is in form an obligation can be

taken to be an obligation for the purposes

of s.5l(xxix) if a failure to act in

conformity with those terms is likely to

affect Australia's relations with other

nations and cormnunities. That can be easily

tested. Would those relations be affected if

Australia failed to take any step in accordance

with Arts. 4 and 5 towards the protection and
conservation of a property situated in Australia

of such outstanding universal value that it is

part of the cultural heritage or natural heritage

of the world (especially a property listed under

Art. 11) when a step is needed to avert or

minimize damage to tb.e property? Unless Australia

were to attribute hypocrisy and cynicism to the

CIT53/l/JM 84 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

international community, only an affirmative

answer is possible.

We would submit that were it otherwise the

whole scheme of the international co-operation

would be pointless. If State parties can be

under a positive obligation under article 6.2

to help another State in protection of the property

on either of the lists in some other State territory,

it cannot be contemplated that the recipient

State could itself deny the obligation under articles 3, 4 and 5 to protect the listed property,

or, we would say, rely upon determination of a

municipal court to say that it was not of World

Heritage status. Because the fact of listings

give rise to an o~ligation in other States under

article 6.2, as well as being a central part of

the whole mechanism of international co-operation,

we submit it follows that listing conclusively

establishes the obligation to conserve and protect.

Of course, since the important process of

assistance is essentially restricted to properties

on the list, it cannot have been contemplated

that a State party which had submitted a property

for inclusion on the list, which had succeeded __ in

having the property listed, could deny a

positive obligation to which international

assistance is but complementary to protect the

property.

(Continued on page 86)

CIT53/2/JM 85 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
MR GRIFFITH (continuing):  As a practical matter, in

international terms, how could a State party

deny the obligations to protect, which

attached to the property, it is successfully
submitted, and for which if it requests it may

receive benefits. And, of course, practical

benefits are not merely financial ones; they

can also include aspects of international standing.

One of the matters provided for under the

Convention is to provide for biannual publication of

the World Heritage List. And, it is clear from

the publications which we have put before the

Court that the mere fact of inscription and

publication carries with it its own element of

international benefit and also international

furtherance of the elements of co-operation

provided for by the Convention.

DEANE J:  Mr Solicitor, article 12 refers to "purposes

other than those resulting from inclusion in
these lists". What purpose results from

inclusion in the first list? What on earth

does that mean?

MR GRIFFITH:  Your Honour, there are some difficulties.

One derives some assistance from the report of experts I have already referred to, Your Honour,

as to article 12 and - really, doing the best

we can, Your Honour - it would seem the most

obvious explanation of article 12 is that it is

a sort of an attempt to provide a consolation

prize, to say that, "All is not lost if your

nomination is not recognized by our rigorous

standards", and, Your Honour, in essence it is
difficult to see any other consequence other than

the fact that one can say that the State party

who has identified the property as world

heritage can still validly say that it is world heritage and meets the requisite standard under

the terms of the Convention.

DEANE J:  It is easy to sort of try to identify

purposes for having the list and purposes

for including something. I was just wondering

whether the context tells us what purposes

result from inclusion and - - -

MR GRIFFITH:  Your Honour, the purposes resulting from

the list are directly ones entitled to things

such as technical assistance, financial

assistance but, we say, Your Honour, there is a

further consequence resulting from inclusion in
the list; that is, there is a complete recognition

for the purpose of the Convention and for the

purpose of the arrangement between the State

parties of World Heritage status as between the

ClT54/1/JH 86 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

parties, Your Honour. There is a recognition

of the status and the facts of entitlement

obligation that arise from that and, Your Honour,

when one sees now that the Convention has 109

members - the, number of properties listed - the

element, I suppose one could call it, of

international propaganda in raising levels of

not merely national but also individual
perception of the importance of preservation

of the world heritage.

In a real sense, Your Honour, those matters

so far as they are propagated by the

mechanisms established by the Convention, arise

from listing; but that is to go more into the

spirit of the operation of the Convention and its

subsequent history since 1972 than relying on

a particular paragraph.

DEANE J:  But, you cannot point to anything that really

helps identify how a purpose results from

inclusion in a list?

MR GRIFFITH:  No, Your Honour, it could be said that

article 11 could be differently and perhaps

more efficaciously worded but it is a question

of giving the appropriate content - having regard, Your Honour, to the experts and to why they put it there.

MASON CJ:  What you say is supported by what appears

on page 13 of the supplementary materials

relating to article 3 in the travaux
but, again, the connnents there do not manage

to identify any purpose other than the,

specific purposes. It is in the second-last

sentence in paragraph 17.

MR GRIFFITH: Yes, Your Honour, in paragraph 32 on page 15,

it is not really taken any further - that is

the specific note on article 12. Although

perhaps some assistance, Your Honour, is

derived from the note on article 3 on page 13

because the first sentence indicates it was a

new provision:

inserted by Working Group II in order to

make it clear that each State Party to

the Convention is to determine which

properties situated on its territory are

part of -

its heritage.

ClT54/2/JH 87 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
MR GRIFFITH (continuing):  So that it would seem that in the

drafting process the basic principles of the Convention

were drawn together without having an article 3 and

that was more or less introduced later to provide a

specific provision but, in the context, none the less,

Your Honour, of the mechanism of the corrnnittee to

consider listing on the merits.

Another construction which might have been

possible of article 12 to say is that it could apply

whether or not the property had been the subject-matter

of an application to list but we would submit that,

when one has regard to the context appearing after

article 11, probably the more appropriate reading
is to regard it as picking up properties, one of the,
say, four properties we referred to in the 1988

consideration where listing was refused, such as the

..... Bridge, on the basis that it was not sufficiently

appropriate to list it but there does not seem to be all

that much material on article 12 that we have been able

to discern to take the matter very much further.

Turning brieflt, then, to beyond matters of

obligation which we sayare sufficiently covered by

6(2)(b), we also rely on paragraphs 6(2)(c) and 6(2)(d)

on page 5 of the print of the Act. My learned friend

obliquely has sought to argue questions of validity.

Our submission is that validity is not in issue, firstly,

because it was not pleaded but we feel it is appropriate

for the Court, perhaps, to resolve this issue if it feels

it is appropriate and we submit in paragraph 2 of our

contentions that, as to these paragraphs, of course,

6(2)(b) was specifically upheld in TASMANIAN DAMS.

Only Justice Murphy specifically upheld paragraph 6(2)(c)

but we submit that the validity of 6(2)(d) and 6(2)(d)

must now be regarded as sufficiently established and

would rely not merely on the references to

Your Honours' judgments in the DAM case which we

there set out, but we would submit that the references

to the judgment·.. in RICHARDSON there set out also,

would implicitly cover the situation of both
paragraphs (c) and (d). So, we say that, for the

reasons there stated by various of Your Honours,

paragraph (c) and paragraph (d) are within power.

We would submit that paragraph (c) just as much

as paragraph (b) would apply here, according to its

terms. Perhaps it is otiose to seek to do so because

if the protection or conservation is a matter of

international obligation, we submit it must follow

that protection or conservation is necessary ort

desirable for the purpose of giving effect to the

Convention and, of course, the benefits arising from

listing under article 6.2 13, 20 and 22(a) may make

the protection or preservation desirable bearing in

mind the entitlement to benefit and the possibility

ClTSS/1/SH 88 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

of delisting that one can pick up, as I mentioned

in paragraphs 35 to 43 of the guidelines which

con:rrn.ence on page 302 in volume 2 of the materials.

We would say further that in view of the decision

of the executive to ratify the Convention and to

nominate the property and to give effect to the

Convention in the Act, at least after listing the

property of the property and having regard to the

terms of the Convention, subject to questions of

bad faith which do not arise, the Court would be

compelled to the conclusion that, in the circumstances,

protection and conservation of the property should be

regarded as desirable.

Now, we adopt a similar approach with

paragraph 6(2)(d). We say it is self-evident that

upon listing the protection or conservation must be

regarded as a matter of international concern. The

obligation to protect and conserve applies by the

terms of the Convention. The obligations are perceived

by the international body established under the

Convention and by the State parties to attach in

respect of the property. So that, whether or not

the property could be established as a matter of objective fact, not to be of world heritage, the

failure by Australia to take proper measures for the

Australia's relations with other countries. protection or conservation would be likely to prejudice

(Continued on page 90)

ClTSS/2/SH 89 9/5/89
Queenaland(2)

MR GRIFFITH (continuing): Australia would be perceived to be

in breach of an international obligation and the

international obligation is one, of course, relating

to the sensitive matter of the world's remaining

and diminishing tropical rain forests. As to this

aspect, it is our submission that the inclusion of

the property in the list has in itself important

international consequences merely from the fact

that it joins a growing list in respect of the

operations of the Convention with some 109 countries

which, just in the last year, have come to include

Russia as well as other major world powers and,

of course, almost all our neighbours in the Pacific

and Asia.

One aspect where one can say that inclusion

on the list is important in itself is that there is
a scheme of international co-operation including

education, article 27; updating of the heritage

list, we have referred to,article 11, and also the

requirement that each State party report to the

general conference of UNESCO as to the steps

it has taken under article 29. In the circumstances,

we submit that it can be seen that a failure by

a State party to protect the property which itself

has submitted would be regarded as something which

could be said to weaken the fabric of the Convention;

arouse feelings of perhaps despair and hostility

in other countries who adhere to the ideals of the

Convention; expose Australia to charges of self-interest

with disregard to international obligations; perhaps

deprive the country and its executive of moral

authority in matters of international affairs and

certainlyretard progress towards the attainment of

the objects of the Convention. So, in that way, we

would submit that it is not difficult to articulate

bases for prejudice to countries' relations with other

countries.

The remaining matter to deal with is the question of drawing the threads together of our submissions

as to the role of the Court. In essence we suppose

that our submissions to that have already been

covered by our submissions to date. We say, of course,

the Court must be satisfied as to the conditions

for validity under the Act and we have referred to

the fact that the only one which, even on the

pleadings, is in issue here, is the question of

validity of the proclamation made under section 6(2)

with the passing suggestion as to possible invalidity of paragraph(2)(c) and (d) which we have already dealt with.

Now, we submit that one should, having regard to reading the Convention and its objects as a whole,

regard listing as authoritative determination of the

quality of the property for all international

purposes, although, of course, the reverse is not

true. If it is determined not to list, article 12

ClT56/l/VH 90 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
may still apply. But the contrary position, as far

as listing is concerned, we submit, is that for

all international purposes, certainly all purposes

under the Convention, the property is to be regarded -

and that includes matters of obligation as of

World Heritage status. Thus, if the nature of the

obligation is analysed, we submit that Australian

courts are not deprived of jurisdiction as to

inquiry into facts. It is just that the facts

that are the subject-matter of legitimate inquiry -

always assuming no allegation of bad faith - are

narrow. The court has to be satisfied as to

identification, nomination and listing, and these

are matters of fact but they are not disputed facts

in this case other than the issue as to the underlying -

it is asserted - fact as to the actual actual physical quality of the property as distinct from the finding

by the Committee as a result of the nomination and

consideration in respect of listing under article 11.2.

We have already made the point that even if the

World Heritage Committee is asserted to be wrong -

and that is,,1 in effect, the plaintiff's assertion.

They are not merely saying, "We want to prove as a matter of fact the issue of status," they are saying, in effect, "We wish to establish that the

World Heritage Committee is wrong." We submit that
it is demonstrated from the materials the World

Heritage Committee took an affirmative view on

whether or not this property met the qualification

under articles 1 and 2. The plaintiffs seek to

engage the Court in inquiry to say the World

Heritage Commitee is wrong. We submit that that,

in essence, is an irrelevant issue, because even if

that were the fact, the relevant fact on which the

international obligation rests in this case, for

the purpose, for example, of paragrc!:ph (b), is the

fact that the property has been listed. That is

sufficient in itself to estarnlish the obligation.

It may be established in other ways under the

Convention. but it is sufficient for all purposes, we would say, of the validity of the proclamation, to say it has been established in that way.

(Continued on page 92)

ClT56/2/VH 91 9/5/89
Queens land ( 2)
MR GRIFFITH (continuing):  When one draws it together, the

ambit of possible factual inquiry under

paragraphs (b),(c) and (d) when proclamations are

made after the property has been listed,

assuming good faith, is very limited. So that

the existence of the obligation is confirmed by

listing and the Court- need only be satisfied

of the fact of listing and that resolves issues of

constitutional validity of the exercise of

statutory powers under the Act.

Australia has acted in accordance with its

international obligations. The procedures of the

Convention have been faithfully complied with and, we would submit, that as a matter of domestic law,

the responsibility of fulfilling the relevant

international obligations lie primarily with the

Corrnnonwealth, as the executive in the exercise

of ])lrerogative power. Your Honours, the Chief

Justice and Justice Brennan pointed out in

RICHARDSON v THE FORESTRY COMMISSION, (1987-1988)

164 CLR 261 at page 296: "'tt'he ultimate decision

to be made by the Executive qovernment, whether
the area, or parts of it, should be proposed for

inclusion in the World Heritage Lis4 involves

a calculus of factors, including factors which

are cultural, economic and political."

We would submit that these factors are stronger

in the case of an international tribunal. And we

submit that the reasons to defer to an international

tribunal are even more compelling than in the case
of an executive in respect of acts of nomination.

Here the decision of the executive has been acted

upon by the international corrnnunity so as to give

rise to new international rights and obligations.

And we submit the case for accepting and acting

on the decision of the executive, conf.irmed by the

decision of the committee established under the

Convention is overwhelming. We have referred, without giving a reference to

Your Honour's discussion of these issues in

GERHARDY V BROWN, in fact it was the last page of

the reference given by my learned friend, Mr Davies,

159 CLR 70, in particular Your Honour's discussion

on pages~ 138 and 139. We refer t:.-here "to ·Your Honour's

reference to ~he classic statement of the doctrine

as to the acceptance of legislative or executive

judgment in BAKER V CARR, and submit virtually all

the factors there referred are relevant here,

but,we would submit, more strongly relevant dealing

with an international executive, as it were,

rather than the municipal one.

We submit that when one is considering that

the Court is invited to second-guess a World

Heritage Corrnnittee's determination, well then the

ClT57/l/DR 92 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

case for non-involvement of the court is

established. We say once listed you cannot say

the property can reasonably be regarded as

World Heritage. It has been so identified by

the international body under the Convention,
the proclamation was made after it was so identified

and at that time the property cannot reasonably be

regarded as not being of world heritage.

Our final submission is that made in paragraph 15

the property is incapable of being reasonably regarded as of world heritage status is untenable and no further inquiry of fact could be

of our contentions and that is, that the international allegation that
determination or acceptance of the status of the

property constituted by its inclusion in a World

relevant. We, therefore, submit that the first of

the questions put before the Court should be
answered yes, and the second question not answered
or answered unnecessary to answer. If the Court

pleases.

MASON CJ: That you, Mr Solicitor. Yes, Mr Davies.

MR DAVIES:  Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honours, we made

the submission this morning that the obligation to

protect arose irrespective of identification and

Your Honour Justice Dawson pointed out the

difficulties of enforceability at that stage. The

point, in our respectful submission, of making
that submission, is not with respect to enforceability

at that point, but with respect to reviewability

at a later point. And, indeed, in our respectful

submission, in that sense the submission is correct.

We referred Your Honours to the statement of

Your Honour Justice Gaudron in RICHARDSON, page 341,
this morning. Could I refer Your Honours also to

a statement by Your Honour Justice Brennan in the

TASMANIAN DAM case at page 235, where in dealing

with the external affairs power of the Act and

section 6, Your Honour said, in the third sentence

under that heading:

Identified property is not necessarily

property with respect to which the

legislative power may be exercised. A

property which is submitted to the World inclusion in the World Heritage List (and is accordingly identified property under s. 3(2)(a)(i) may not prove to be part of the cultural or natural heritage.

ClT57/2/DR 93 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
MR DAVIES (continuing): 

A property which is declared by the Regulations

to form part of the cultural heritage or

natural heritage (and is accordingly identified
property under s.3(2)(a)(ii) may not in

fact be part of the cultural heritage or

natural heritage. In an attempt to ensure

that s.9 applied only to identified property

in a State with respect to which Commonwealth

legislative power may be exercised, the

draftsman has inserted the qualifying paragraphs

of s.6(2).

Your Honours, if I can go back to the

international obligation which is contained in

the Convention, in our respectful submission

one really must construe that international obligation

in terms of the definition of "natural heritage"

and "cultural heritage" in articles 1 and 2.

So, in our respectful submission, it is not correct to say that the obligation is to identify and

delineate however wrongly and carelessly that

is done. It is, in our respectful submission, either an obligation to identify and delineate

correctly or an obligation to do so in a way

which is capable of being reasonably considered

to be correct. So that if it is demonstrably,

for example, careless and wrong then, in our

respectful submission, it is reviewable. So that
is the point, in our respectful submission, of

saying that the obligation exists irrespective

of identification and delineation. We accept

that it is a value judgment but what we say is

that it is not beyond review.

Your Honours, might I just mention, although

I am sure Your Honours appreciate this, that

our learned friend in taking Your Honours through

the nomination at considerable length sought

to show, as he said, how comprehensive it was,

but this case comes to the Court on disputed

facts. Those disputed facts may show that what

was done in the document was not at all comprehensive,

that it is careless and wrong so, in our respectful

submission, one really cannot, in view of the

dispute which exists as to facts, assume from

perusal of the document - one certainly should

not assume from the perusal of the document - that

it has been comprehensively dealt with.

And similarly our learned friend referred

to Dr Thorsell's opinion expressed in the transcript.

Again in the face of a factual dispute one cannot

accept, for example, that there are "rare and
threatened species" - to name possible matters

that are in dispute, that the songbirds evolved

from this area.

ClT58/l/AC 94 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

It may be based on a mistaken view of

someone else's opinion. These are all matters

which, in our respectful submission, are in dispute

and, therefore, should not be assumed.

McHUGH J:  But that is the very sort of issue that makes
it very difficult for a court, is it not? I

mean it is very much a matter of opinion as to

whether the songbirds started there or whether
they came from Asia, as used to be thought. How

is anyone ever going to prove that?

MR DAVIES: 

It is a matter of expert opinion and the way one proves - - -

McHUGH J: That is what it is, opinion, really.

MR DAVIES: 

But it is expert opinion and the way one arrives at any conclusion based on expert opinion,

Your Honour.  The point we are really making,
I suppose in that sense - one of the points we
are making in that sense is that it is not a
discretionary thing, it really is a conclusion
which any court can arrive at and courts arrive
at any day as a question which is based on an
opinion and in this case clearly, we would submit,
expert opinion.

(Continued on page 96)

ClT58/2/AC 95 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
MR DAVIES (continuing):  Your Honours, can I just mention

a couple of articles which were referred to by

our learned friend during the course of his
submissions. One is article 6.2. It remains
difficult to construe, in one important sense,

because though it refers to property forming

part of the:

cultural and natural heritage referred to

in paragraphs 2 and 4 of Article II -

it refers also to identification and, really,

what it must mean, in our respectful submission,

is not, having regard to the fact that it includes
identification, a reference to property which

is already listed, it must be talking about the

question of identification perhaps for the purpose

of listing property. In other words, for the

purpose of preparing an inventory to go on one

or other of those lists.

Can I then say something about article 12

because that question was raised by Your Honour

Justice Deane and Your Honour asked the question

with respect to article 12 about purposes other

than those resulting from inclusion in the lists.

The consequences which result from inclusion

in the list I attempted to set out this morning and, in substance, they really are, in the case of inclusion on the first list, eligibility for

inclusion on the second list and then eligibility

for the assistance to which article 20 refers.

But absent listing, property may have outstanding

universal value within the meaning of that term
in each of articles 1 and 2 and have consequences
for other purposes; that is, for the purposes
of articles 4 and 5, for the purpose of, at least,

articles 6. 1 and 6.3, if not also 6.2 with respect

to identification, article 13.2, because

Your Honours will recall that article 20 which says that, generally speaking, requests for or
the provision of international assistance is
limited only to property which has already been
listed, there is an exception to that, in the
case of assistance for identification under
article 13.2.

So that is one of the purposes which article 12

has in mind and that includes, as Your Honours

will have seen from article 22(c), the provision

of specialists by other State parties in the

field of identification. And, again, article 23

also talks about provision by the World Heritage

Committee of international assistance in the

case of identification which, again, must precede

listing.

C 1T59 /1 /ND 96 9/5/89
Queensland(2)
MR DAVIES (continuing):  And finally, Your Honours,

may I say that we do not wish to say the

World Heritage Committee is wrong in this

sense, that we do not say that any consequences

flow from listing. We really made the point

that either the obligations which are relevant

to this legislation arise because the property

is, in fact, natural or cultural heritage, or
because of the act of identification and
delineation by the State party. In either of
which case, in our respectful submission, the

alternative answers which we suggested are the answers which, in our submission, are correct.

They are our submissions.

MASON CJ:  Thank you, Mr Davies. The Court will consider

its decision in this matter.

AT 3.39 PM THE MATTER WAS ADJOURNED SINE DIE

ClT60/1/JH 97 9/5/89
Queensland(2)

Cases Citing This Decision

0

Cases Cited

5

Statutory Material Cited

0

Commonwealth v Tasmania [1983] HCA 21