R v Goggins
[2014] VCC 1086
•7 July 2014
| IN THE COUNTY COURT OF VICTORIA AT MELBOURNE CRIMINAL DIVISION | Revised Not Restricted Suitable for Publication |
Case No. CR-14-00128
| THE QUEEN |
| V |
| PATRICK GOGGINS |
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JUDGE: | Her Honour Judge Davis | |
WHERE HELD: | Melbourne | |
DATE OF HEARING: | 22 May and 18 June 2014 | |
DATE OF SENTENCE: | 7 July 2014 | |
CASE MAY BE CITED AS: | R v Goggins | |
MEDIUM NEUTRAL CITATION: | [2014] VCC 1086 | |
REASONS FOR SENTENCE
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Catchwords: CRIMINAL LAW – child pornography – persistent sexual abuse of child overseas – engage in sexual activity with a child overseas – Federal and State offences
Legislation Cited: Criminal Code Act 1995 (Cth) – Crimes Act1958 (Vic) – Summary Offences Act 1966 (Vic) – Sex Offenders Registration Act2004 (Vic) – Sentencing Act 1991 (Vic)
Cases Cited:R v Gent (2005) 162 A Crim R 29 – Barbaro v The Queen; Zirilli v The Queen [2014] HCA 2 (12 February 2014) – Verdins; Buckley; Vo (2007) 16 VR 269
Sentence: 11 years and 6 months with non-parole period of 8 years
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APPEARANCES: | Counsel | Solicitors |
| For the DPP | Mr B. Stevens | CDPP |
| For the Accused | Dr M. Marich | Marich & Associates |
HER HONOUR:
1 Patrick Goggins, you have pleaded guilty to the following charges under the Commonwealth Criminal Code Act 1995 (Cth): two charges[1] of using a carriage service to access child pornography material; eight charges[2] of engaging in sexual activity with a child; seven charges[3] of persistent sexual abuse of a child outside Australia; one charge[4] of cause child pornography material to be transmitted to himself using a carriage service; one charge[5] of using a carriage service to solicit child pornography; and one charge[6] of producing child pornography material for use through a carriage service. You have also pleaded guilty to the following charges under the Victorian Crimes Act1958 (Vic): one charge of production of child pornography[7] and one charge[8] of knowingly possess child pornography.
[1]Charges 2 and 12. Charge 2 carries a maximum penalty of ten years' imprisonment. Charge 12 carries a maximum penalty of 15 years' imprisonment.
[2]Charges 3-6, 10-11, 19, 20. The maximum penalty for this offence is 15 years' imprisonment.
[3]Charges 7-9, 13, 14, 16,17. The maximum penalty for this offence is 25 years' imprisonment.
[4]Charge 15. The maximum penalty for this offence is 15 years' imprisonment.
[5]Charge 18. The maximum penalty for this offence is 15 years' imprisonment.
[6]Charge 21. The maximum penalty for this offence is 15 years' imprisonment.
[7]Charge 1. The maximum penalty for this offence is 10 years' imprisonment.
[8]Charge 22. The maximum penalty for this offence is five years' imprisonment.
2 You have also pleaded guilty to two related summary charges[9]: that of visually capturing the genital or anal region contrary to s 41B of the Summary Offences Act 1966 (Vic) and distributing images or videos of the genital or anal region, contrary to s 41C of that Act. The summary offences relate to your taking 233 photographs and one video up the skirts of unknown females, and uploading an unknown amount of the up-skirting material onto a website between September 2007 and February 2013.
[9]The maximum penalty for these summary offences is two years' imprisonment.
3
You admitted your criminal record, which comprises two matters. On 27 May 1969, you appeared at the Prahran Court of Petty Sessions on a charge of being found in an enclosed yard without lawful excuse and the matter was adjourned for one year on a $200 good behaviour bond with the condition to seek medical treatment. I do not attach any relevance to this prior. On
6 February 2000, you were convicted at the Melbourne Magistrates’ Court on charges of fail to answer bail; failure to appear; knowingly possess film of child pornography; invite/procure child for objectionable film; make objectionable film for gain; and indecent assault. You were sentenced to an aggregate term of 180 days imprisonment, of which 75 days were suspended for 24 months. The circumstances of the offending was that you would take hidden video footage of girls who were changing into bathers in your photographic studio.
4 The plea hearing took place over two days, 22 May and 18 June 2014. At the end of submissions on the first day, I indicated that I would be assisted by submissions from counsel on the question of cumulation. I adjourned the matter for further plea on 18 June 2014, when I was supplied with two further documents which were tendered. The first was an agreed table describing the offences and appropriate points of cumulation and concurrency (Exhibit 3). The second was an outline of legal principles prepared by the prosecution and which Dr Marich agreed correctly set out the legal principles (Exhibit 4). Finally, I note that there was no issue that Charges 1, 2, 12, 15, 18, 21 and 22 are class 2 offences and that 4 of these attract lifetime reporting obligations under the Sex Offenders Registration Act 2004 (Vic). I also note that you fall to be sentenced as a serious sex offender on Charge 22 and I order that this be entered into the court’s records. I note however, Mr Stevens' indication by email that the prosecution did not seek cumulation in relation to that charge.
5
The summary of prosecution opening is 19 pages long and was tendered as Exhibit 2. I sentence you on the basis of the facts set out in that document, which I have attached to these sentencing remarks because it is inappropriate to attempt to summarise it. I note that Schedule 1 of the summary of prosecution opening is a 27 page description of web camera videos and chat log text relating to each victim and I have read that document in full.
I sentence you on the basis of that material as well.
6 On 4 April 2013 your premises were searched and your computer and CD/DVDS, and a number of disc drives were seized. You participated in a record of interview with police following legal advice and answered all questions. The matter proceeded to committal mention by way of straight hand-up brief on 24 January 2014, at which time you pleaded guilty to all charges included on the indictment as well as to summary charges. There is no pre-sentence detention.
7
I will briefly describe the material the subject of the Commonwealth charges. Charges 2 and 12 (using a carriage service to access child pornography material) concerns 2376 child pornography files (2260 images and
116 videos) located on the seven devices referred to in the prosecution summary[10] containing material ranging from Category 1 to Category 5 material, although most of the material was in Categories 1 to 4.
[10] See para 17 of the Prosecution Opening (Exhibit 2)
8 Charges 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 11, 19 and 20 concern the offence of engaging in sexual activity with a child. Charge 3 is a rolled-up charge which involves Category 2 material of ten unknown victims between the ages of four to six and 15. Some of that material shows the naked victims penetrating their vaginas and masturbating. Charge 4 is a rolled-up charge which involves Category 1 material in relation to 21 unknown victims between ages three to five and 15. Charges 5, 6, 10, 11, 19 and 20 are also serious charges, but mostly involve individual victims rather than multiple victims.
9 Charges 7, 8, 9, 13, 14, 16 and 17 concern persistent sexual abuse of a child outside Australia. These are the most serious offences you have been charged with, carrying a maximum penalty of 25 years' imprisonment. Your offending is at the higher end of the scale for these offences. The most serious of these offences is Charge 8, which relates to three web camera recordings in which you instructed or caused the child to engage in sexual intercourse in your presence with an over 16 year old female. As well as sexual intercourse, you caused the child to engage in Category 3 and 4 activities. It included web camera footage of the child having fellatio performed on him by a female of over 16 years of age, the child fondling the said female’s breasts, performing cunnilingus on the said female, and being masturbated by the said female. The shortest duration of web camera footage was 14 minutes and 19 seconds and the longest was 28 minutes and seven seconds.
10 The other offences of persistent sexual abuse concern material of a similar nature, but also including Category 1 and 2 activities, involving identified and unknown male and female children. Charge 9 involves a female child between the ages of six to eight engaged in sexual conduct with different females aged 13 to 16. The activities include the younger female being masturbated and penetrated by the older female, and having cunnilingus performed on her.
11 Charge 15, causing child pornography material to be transmitted to yourself using a carriage service, refers to 55 occasions on which you caused Category 1 and Category 2 material of a 16 year old identified female victim, to be transmitted to yourself by way of online sexual activity shows. Payments were made by you.
12 Charge 18, using a carriage service to solicit child pornography material, refers to two occasions when you solicited child pornography material from an identified female victim. Payments were made on ten occasions.
13 Charge 21, producing child pornography material for use through a carriage service, concerns your recording a web camera video of an identified female victim engaged in sexual activity and made available that video recording via the internet to another user.
14 Finally, there are the Victorian offences. Charge 1, production of child pornography, relates to the total number of 2139 files that were produced by you, containing Category 1 to Category 4 material. Charge 22, knowingly possess child pornography, concerns 1382 images and 108 videos, totalling 1490 files, which are included within the Commonwealth access Charges 2 and 12.
15 I turn to your personal circumstances.
16
Your counsel tendered a psychological report by Gary McMullen dated
20 May 2014 which provided a full account of your personal circumstances. This report was not formally tendered, but I now mark it Exhibit A. You are aged 68 and live alone in rental accommodation, have never married, and have no children. Your last significant relationship was when you were in your 20s. You lived in Perth till the age of seven, then in South Australia till the age of 19, then you moved to Melbourne. You have an older brother and sister in South Australia. You were close to her. She died of cancer five years ago. Your mother died just ten days after your sister, at the age of 97. You completed the Leaving Certificate and worked in Melbourne at the Department of Supply until you were called up in July 1966. You served in Vietnam as an infantry rifleman and had a number of traumatic experiences. After returning from Vietnam, you returned to your previous employment and remained there for four years. You then resigned and tried a number of jobs, including three years as a recreation officer with a local council, working as a photographer, and working on a garbage truck.
17 In 1999, you attended your first Anzac day March and then became involved with the RSL, where you learned about the availability of a pension. Around that time you were granted a Veterans Affairs Total and Permanent Incapacity pension due to developing post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of your combat experience in Vietnam.
18 You have had only two intimate relationships in your life, both when you were about 20. You became engaged to one of these woman but she broke off the engagement, which upset you greatly. Since then, you have had only a few ‘one night stands”. You avoided intimate relationships as you did not want to be hurt.
19 You have friends but enjoy spending time alone. You use alcohol and at times will binge drink. You drink two or three days a week at the RSL.
20 In relation to the circumstances of your offending, you told Mr McMullen that you were introduced to internet pornography on a Japanese web site, then met a young 19 year old Vietnamese woman through an Australian man on a chat site. You went to Vietnam but the relationship did not develop. That same man introduced you to the girls in the Philippines. You said that you did not intend to do anything when online with the girls, and became “locked into feeling sorry for them” and so continued to send money. When asked about the encouragement you gave them to perform sexual acts and the instructions you gave at times, you said you did not want to be seen as a soft touch by “giving them money for nothing”. At first you objected when there was a younger naked girl in the background, but stopped objecting as time went by. Your main explanation for going back to the girls was that you were “bloody stupid”, but that you did not think the girls thought there was much wrong with what they had done, as they were desperate for money. You told him you did not see what was wrong with “just watching” and that you were “not physically doing anything”.
21 You have not seen a psychiatrist for a few years in relation to your post-traumatic stress disorder. You also suffer from retinopathy, and from ophthalmic migraines and occasional positional vertigo. You also have a hiatus hernia.
22 Mr McMullen concluded that you suffer from PTSD as well as some depression and anxiety. You managed to continue functioning reasonably well for about four years after returning from active duty, but began to deteriorate over time to the point where you were put on a pension. For the past 11 years, you have lived a fairly constrained existence, mixing only with ex-servicemen, drinking. You spend a lot of time alone. Your offending with the underage girls started after the deaths of your mother and sister, the only two women with whom you had maintained a long term, close relationship. He felt that you are psycho-sexually immature. He found that you are at high risk for re-offending. He noted that while you may not view your behaviour “as thoroughly wrong”, you now have a full appreciation of its illegality. He noted that you have moved over time from contact to non-contact offences, but felt that you require support and supervision so that you do not, through isolation and loneliness, feel tempted to seek new victims on the internet. He felt that you would benefit from educational programs designed to help you appreciate the circumstances of your victims and the damage they have almost certainly suffered. He felt that you should be treated for your PTSD and its associated symptoms of nightmares and insomnia. He noted that given your age, health, solitary life style and the nature of your offending, that you are likely to find a period of imprisonment onerous.
23 I turn to the submissions made at the plea hearing.
24 Your counsel relied on your early plea of guilty, and submitted that your mental health disorder of post-traumatic stress disorder meant that principle 5 of Verdins[11] was enlivened in that you are likely to find imprisonment more burdensome than a person of normal health. She noted that you are an active member of the RSL but spend a lot of time on the internet. Your counsel conceded that in your record of interview and your discussions with Mr McMullen you have shown that you have minimised your offending because you do not truly understand the wrongness of your conduct, for example, by suggesting that the girls are free to choose what they do. She conceded that your position, that you are merely sponsoring the girls financially, is unjustifiable, and that you have in the chat logs shown that you are a willing and active participant in the behaviour.
[11] (2007) 16 VR 269
25 In relation to the relationships with the girls, she submitted that at first you were interested in forming a relationship with one of the identified female victims and expressed some affection for her, whereas the relationships with the other girls was purely transactional. She submitted that these girls were already the products of the market to which they had been introduced by others, and that for this reason your offending was not the same as had you been involved in initial corruption of a young local victim. She submitted that most of the child pornography material, chats, and solicitation and persistent sexual abuse involves conduct falling into Categories 1 and 2. She relied on your advanced age, post-traumatic stress disorder and extremely severe depression and anxiety which had been untreated for 15 years. She conceded that your lack of empathy for your victims affects your prospects of rehabilitation and that you have been assessed at high risk for re-offending.
26 The prosecution submitted that, given the seriousness of the offending, your high level of moral culpability, the long period over which the offending occurred, your prior conviction for similar offending, the absence of genuine remorse, and notwithstanding your plea of guilty and your age and the fact that prison will be more onerous for you because of your mental state, a substantial period of imprisonment is warranted.
27 I turn first to the federal offences and to the nature/gravity and circumstances of them. I note that your offending involves distinct types of offending, some of which attracts a maximum sentence of five years' imprisonment, most of which attracts a maximum sentence of 15 years' imprisonment, and the worst of which attracts a maximum sentence of 25 years' imprisonment. On the whole, these are objectively very serious offences.
28 The offences contrary to Division 272 of the Criminal CodeAct 1995 (Cth) were introduced on 15 April 2010. The then Minister for Home Affairs, introducing the legislation, said:
We have a duty to ensure that…Commonwealth laws provide a significant deterrent to abuse and a sound basis for prosecuting offenders…Rapidly changing technologies and the anonymity that the Internet provides have resulted in unprecedented opportunities for child sex offenders. Our laws need to keep pace with the speed of technological change.
29 This intention is also evidenced in the increase in penalty from ten to 15 years for conduct the subject of Charge 12.
30 In terms of creation of a market, those inclined to exploit children by involving them in the production of child pornography are encouraged by the fact that there is a market for it. Without people like yourself to import, possess or distribute the material and pay for the shows that you paid for, there would be no need for children to be exploited, degraded, violated or abused to supply that market.
31 In assessing the seriousness of the offending, the factors to be considered are those outlined in R v Gent (2005) 162 A Crim R 29 at [65] and include: the nature and the content of the material including the age of the children; the gravity of the sexual activity portrayed, the volume of material accessed, possessed, distributed, imported; whether access, importation or possession is for personal use or further distribution; and whether the offender will profit or benefit from the activity and the time it was accessed, possessed or transmitted. I have already outlined the content of the material, and it speaks for itself.
32 I turn first to the material itself. It is categorised as levels 1-5, and in total amounted to about 2500 images and videos, which was accessed over a period of at least four years. I note that in terms of the webcam chats in schedule 1, there are many victims, particularly overseas victims. The sums paid to the victims indicates that you were willing to exploit the vulnerability of these children for your own sexual gratification, showing no regard for their welfare. You actively encouraged sexual abuse of these children and gave instructions about what you wanted to view. It was not isolated offending; it took place over a protracted period and you cultivated relationships with some of the victims, resulting in persistent sexual abuse. The age of the victims was as young as three, but mostly between the ages of six and 16. You recorded the shows and on one occasion shared it with another like-minded individual and the offending generally demonstrates your interest in under-age female children. You used an alias so that you could be anonymous on the internet. I acknowledge that your offending occurred online and that you are to be sentenced on that basis and not on the basis of physical contact, as none has occurred.
33 The nature, content and volume of the material makes your offending very serious. I acknowledge that your offending appears to relate to personal use, and that you did not profit from the activities.
34 However, as I have said, objectively your offending is very serious indeed. Your level of culpability is high. You have a prior conviction in 2000 for offending of a similar kind - that is, knowingly possess child pornography - and a short period of imprisonment was not sufficient to deter you from your current offending. Specific deterrence therefore looms large as a factor in sentencing you. In terms of detection, these offences are difficult to detect as offenders can shield behind the anonymity of the internet and require significant police resources.
35 On the authorities, general deterrence is the paramount consideration when sentencing an offender for a child pornography offence. The major public interest factor of needing to protect children from sexual abuse also makes general deterrence very important. Protection of the public is a very relevant consideration given the assessment by Mr McMullen that you pose a high risk of re-offending in the same manner. I note your instructions through your counsel that you consider that you are at no risk of re-offending, but I prefer the evidence of Mr McMullen in this regard.
36 In terms of the personal circumstances of the victims, the possession of child pornography is not a victimless crime because children are sexually abused in order to supply the market. As Mr McMullen pointed out in his report, the victims in this case were likely to have suffered psychological harm as a result of the offending. In this case, there are many identifiable victims who live in poverty and are in a very poor economic position compared to you.
37 In terms of your cooperation with law enforcement agencies, I acknowledge that you participated in a record of interview, made admissions and handed over your passwords to your accounts, although most of these did not work.
38 In terms of mitigating factors, I must take into account your early plea of guilty as a mitigating factor, as it shows a willingness to facilitate the course of justice. In your case, the utilitarian value of your plea is high, given the large number of unidentified victims the subject of some of the charges, including Charges 1, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11. However, it is clear from the psychological report of Mr McMullen that you show no genuine remorse as described in the case of Barbaro v The Queen; Zirilli v The Queen [2014] HCA 2.
39 The second major factor in mitigation is the engagement of Verdins[12] principle 5. I accept Mr McMullen’s conclusion that imprisonment will be more onerous for you due to your psychological condition, that is your post-traumatic stress disorder.
[12] (2007) 16 VR 269
40 Finally, in order to take into account both the principle of totality and the need to avoid what would otherwise be a crushing sentence, given your age, I have arrived at what I consider to be the appropriate sentence for each charge, but have then moderated the extent of cumulation.
41 You are convicted on all charges.
42 On Charge 1, production of child pornography, you are sentenced to two years’ imprisonment.
43 On Charge 2, using a carriage service to access child pornography material, you are sentenced to two years' imprisonment.
44 On Charge 12, using a carriage service to access child pornography, you are sentenced to two years’ imprisonment.
45 Charges 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 11, 19 and 20 concern the offence of engaging in sexual activity with a child contrary to s.272.9(1) of the Criminal Code Act 1995 (Cth). You gave instructions to the victims and made payments in relation to some identified children involved in Charges 19 and 20.
46 Charge 3 is a rolled-up charge representing ten unknown victims between the ages of four to six and 15, and comprising Category 2 material. On Charge 3, you are sentenced to four years' imprisonment.
47 Charge 4 is a rolled-up charge representing 21 unknown victims between the ages of three to five and 15 and comprising Category 1 material. On Charge 4, you are sentenced to four years' imprisonment.
48 On Charge 5, you are sentenced to three years' imprisonment, as the offending involved a female child aged between the ages of eight and 12.
49 On Charge 6, you are sentenced to three years’ imprisonment, as the offending involved three victims and Category 4 material.
50 On Charge 10, you are sentenced to three years' imprisonment, as the material involves Category 3 material involving female children aged between six and eight, and between 13 and 15.
51 On Charge 11, you are sentenced to four years' imprisonment as the material was Category 4 and included a six to eight year old female.
52 On Charge 19, you are sentenced to three years’ imprisonment, as the material involved two occasions with a 14 year old female.
53 On Charge 20, which involved Category 1 material of a five year old female, you are sentenced to four years' imprisonment..
54 I turn to the most serious of the charges, the seven charges of persistent sexual abuse of a child outside Australia. I note that your conduct in each of these charges involved you giving instructions to the victims.
55 As I have indicated, Charge 8 is the most serious of these offences. On Charge 8 you are sentenced to seven years' imprisonment. This is the base sentence.
56 On Charge 7, you are sentenced to six years' imprisonment, as the activity occurred on three occasions with a 13 to 15 year old female child.
57 On Charge 9, you are sentenced to six years' imprisonment, given the age of the child and the fact that there is Category 2, 3 and 4 material involved.
58 On Charge 13, you are sentenced to six years' imprisonment, as the activity occurred on 14 occasions with 15 year old female and payments were made.
59 On Charge 14, you are sentenced to six years' imprisonment as the activity occurred on eight occasions with a female child aged eight to 12.
60 On Charge 16, you are sentenced to six years' imprisonment, as the activity occurred on six occasions with a 15 year old female child and payments were made. .
61 On Charge 17 you are sentenced to six years' imprisonment, as the activity relates to six occasions in which you instructed an eight to ten year old female victim to engage in Category 1 sexual activity.
62 I now turn to the remaining offences.
63 On Charge 15, you are sentenced to five years' imprisonment, because of the number of occasions involved and the fact that payments were made.
64 On Charge 18, you are sentenced to five years' imprisonment.
65 On Charge 21, producing child pornography material for use through a carriage service, you are sentenced to four years' imprisonment.
66 On Charge 22, knowingly possess child pornography, you are sentenced to two years' imprisonment, on the basis that you have a related prior conviction.
67 On the summary charge under s.41B of the Summary Offences Act 1966 (Vic), you are sentenced to one year's imprisonment. On the summary charge under s 41C of the Summary Offences Act 1966 (Vic), you are sentenced to one year's imprisonment.
68
I propose concurrency in relation to Charges 15 and 18, and between Charges 22, 2 and 12 due to overlap of circumstances of the offending and the material. I propose no cumulation in respect of the summary offences.
I also propose concurrency on Charges 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 19 and 20. Therefore the sentences on the summary charges and on Charges 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, 18, 19, 20 and 22 are to be served concurrently with the base sentence .
69 I turn to the issue of cumulation.
70 I adopt the agreed suggestions of counsel, that there should be cumulation in relation to Charges 3, 4, 13, 14, 16, 17 and 21.
71 The parties agreed and I therefore consider that the sentences on Charges 13, 14, 16 and 17 are to be served concurrently with one another, but that there should be some cumulation between them, taken together, upon the base sentence. I direct that 18 months of the sentence on these charges, when taken together, be served cumulatively upon the base sentence.
72
I direct that 12 months of the sentence imposed on Charge 21 be served cumulatively upon the sentence imposed on Charge 8. I direct that 12 months of the sentence on Charge 3 is to be served cumulatively on Charge 8.
I direct that 12 months on Charge 4 is to be served cumulatively on Charge 8.
73 The commencement date for Charge 8 and all other sentences imposed against Commonwealth charges and being served concurrently with the base sentence is today, 7 July 2014.
74
The commencement date of the sentence on Charges 13, 14, 16 and 17 is
7 January 2017.
75 The commencement date of the sentence on Charge 3 is 7 January 2020.
76 The commencement date of the sentence on Charge 4 is 7 January 2021.
77 The commencement date of the sentence on Charge 21 is 7 January 2022.
78 The total effective sentence is 11 and a half years. I direct that you serve a minimum eight years before being eligible for parole.
79 Pursuant to s 6AAA of the Sentencing Act1991 (Vic) I indicate that but for your plea of guilty the sentence I would have imposed would have been one of 16 years with a non-parole period of 13 years.
80 As referred to previously, your offending attracts the provisions of the Sex Offenders Registration Act2004 (Vic). You have been convicted of 7 Class 2 offences, being Charges 1, 2, 12, 15, 18, 21 and 22, and as a result you have become a registrable offender for life and must comply with the reporting conditions of that Act. A document specifying your obligations will be given to you by my Associate.
81 Finally, I propose draw to the attention of Corrections your vulnerability due to age, your psychological condition and, if there is any need to mention your recent cardiac condition, I will mention that as well. Both of which may require assessment and treatment.
82 So that the orders can be prepared, I have a chart here that shows the cumulation, which my Associate will hand to you so that you can have a look at it.
83 DR MARICH: Thank you, Your Honour.
84
HER HONOUR: Let me know whether or not there are any issues with it.
I might give you a little bit of time to do that. We will adjourn briefly so that you can consider that, and if there is anything else I need to correct, I will do so.
85 DR MARICH: Thank you, Your Honour.
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