Pham v Sommerville Retail Services Pty Ltd

Case

[2016] FWC 2267

12 May 2016

No judgment structure available for this case.

[2016] FWC 2267

DECISION

Fair Work Act 2009
s.394—Unfair dismissal
Hoa Thi Pham
v
Somerville Retail Services Pty Ltd
(U2015/12461)
COMMISSIONER LEE MELBOURNE, 12 MAY 2016

Application for relief from unfair dismissal - whether valid reason for dismissal - whether

dismissal was harsh, unjust or unreasonable - Fair Work Act 2009 ss.387, 394.

[1] This matter involves an application made pursuant to section 394 of the Fair Work Act

2009 (Cth) (the Act) for unfair dismissal remedy. Ms Hoa Thi Pham (the Applicant) claims

that she was unfairly dismissed from her employment with Somerville Retail Services Pty Ltd

(the Respondent).

[2]        The matter was listed for hearing before me on 3 and 4 February 2016. The Applicant

was represented by Ms Kennett of the Australasian Meat Industry Employees Union

(AMIEU). The Applicant gave evidence on her own behalf and an interpreter of the

Vietnamese language was provided to assist the Applicant for whom English is a second

language.

[3]        The Respondent was represented by Mr McNab of Counsel. I granted permission to

Mr McNab to appear as I was satisfied that there was sufficient complexity in the matter such

that granting permission would enable the matter to be dealt with more efficiently. Mr

D’Intinosante the Senior Shift Supervisor, Mr Younger the Production Operations Manager,

Ms Soccio the Human Resources Manager and Mr Pike the Shift Supervisor gave evidence on

behalf of the Respondent.

[4]        The application was made within the required statutory time period. It is apparent and

not in dispute that the Applicant is a person protected from unfair dismissal within the

meaning of the Act.

THE EVIDENCE

Background

[5] The Applicant was employed by the Respondent as a meat processing worker. The

Applicant commenced employment with the Respondent in 2005.
[2016] FWC 2267

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[6] The Applicant was terminated on 13 October 2015. The letter of termination refers to

the various reasons for the termination. In summary, the reasons provided were as follows:

 That the Applicant had made inappropriate and unwelcome personal and sexual

references to a number of co-workers in August 2015 and was given a written

warning in respect to this conduct on 11 August 2015.

 On 10 October 2015, the Applicant refused to carry out a lawful instruction to work

in the cutting room on two occasions and that this refusal to follow instructions was

not an isolated event.

 At a meeting convened on 13 October 2015 (the first meeting) to discuss the

Applicant’s alleged refusal to carry out the instruction to move to the cutting room

that the Applicant spoke over the supervisors telling them they were not telling the

truth and was also argumentative. The Applicant’s conduct was described as

“aggressive.”

 At a second meeting convened on 13 October 2015, that the Applicant denied her

alleged behaviour in the first meeting. As this view was not shared by her

supervisors and owing to on-going complaints of unprofessional and unacceptable

conduct by supervisors, it was decided the situation had become untenable.

[7]        The Applicant’s denial of the behaviour in August (the inappropriate sexual

references) and her complaints of bullying by one of the supervisors were rejected.

[8]        The conclusion to the letter of termination is as follows:

“To that end and in taking into consideration your years of service at SRS, your

employment was terminated, based on your refusal to follow SRS policy and

procedure regarding:

1.    Refusal to carry out a lawful instruction on 10 October 2015;

2.    Your conduct in both meetings held on 13 October 2015;

3.   Refusal to carry out a lawful instruction issued by your shift supervisor-Robert

Dintinosante on 19 July 2011; and

4.   Unprofessional conduct and allegations of swearing, arguing and making

unwelcome sexual references in Vietnamese on 11 August 2015.”

[9]        The Applicant received payment of four weeks’ pay in lieu of notice. The Applicant

submits that in all the circumstances the dismissal was unfair. The Respondent refutes that

claim.

The alleged conduct in 2011

[10]      The letter of termination referred to a failure to abide by a direction in July 2011. This

alleged failure was the subject of a written warning issued by Mr D’Intinosante on 19 July

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2011.  The warning reads:

“On 28 June you were directed to scan off and stop work. You refused to scan off

directly disobeying a supervisor’s direction on three occasions at 12.00pm, 12.10pm
[2016] FWC 2267

and 12.35pm. You were asked to go home but refused. You were on WorkCover

reduced hours at the time and only permitted to work 8 and a half hours per day.

You refused a supervisor’s directions on 3 occasions.

You were in breach of your WorkCover restrictions to work no longer than 8.5 hours.

These are serious breaches of the company’s policies and will not be tolerated.”

[11]      The Applicant did not sign the acknowledgement of the warning. The Applicant

provided a certificate of capacity dated 22 June 2011 which specified various work

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restrictions and includes the text “Normal hours ok”. In the context of such a certificate, it is

not clear what normal hours would mean. In the absence of anything more, one could

reasonably assume that normal hours means the hours that the Applicant normally works.

However, Mr D’Intinosante was clear in the warning he issued that the Applicant could not

work more than 8.5 hours. It is not clear what Mr D’Intinosante based that assessment on as

the limitation of 8.5 hours is certainly not in the certificate of capacity. Mr D’Intinosante was

asked about the certificate and whether he took it into consideration. Mr D’Intinosante said

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he “…can’t remember that far back.”

Alleged unprofessional conduct and allegations of swearing, arguing and making

unwelcome sexual references in Vietnamese on 11 August 2015

[12]      Mr D’Intinosante’s evidence is that in August 2015 he was approached by a number of

employees who worked with the Applicant who were upset and raising complaints in relation

to the way they had been spoken to by the Applicant. Mr D’Intinosante says the employees

told him that they had been sworn at and subjected to crude sexual insults in the Vietnamese

language and that one of the complainants was crying when explaining this to Mr

D’Intinosante. Mr D’Intinosante does not say how many employees he spoke with. When Mr

D’Intinosante raised the complaint with the Applicant she denied the allegations. The

Applicant suggested that Mr D’Intinosante look at the CCTV footage as it would show that

the workers were working with their backs to her and this would support her version of

events. Mr D’Intinosante in his statement said that he declined to watch the CCTV as he

v

thought it “would not show the words and language used by her”. On cross examination, Mr

D’Intinosante said that the conduct occurred in the lunch room, not the factory and that there

was no CCTV footage of that area. Mr D’Intinosante provided evidence regarding his

investigative process of the matter:

Ms Kennett:  “Can I take you then to paragraph 4 of your statement. You state
within there that a number of complaints have been raised by multiple
workers in relation to the applicant. Did any of these complaints
become formal complaints to you?”
Mr D’Intinosante  “Yes, they did”.
Ms Kennett:  “Did you investigate them; can you tell the Commission the level of
investigation that you undertook?”
Mr D’Intinosante  “I interviewed a couple of ladies that made the complaint and we dug
deeper and - that’s about the swearing?”
Ms Kennett:  “Yes, correct?”
[2016] FWC 2267
Mr D’Intinosante:  “Yes. Yes, we just – I don’t understand Vietnamese but other ladies
came forward and explained to me what she was actually saying and”.
Ms Kennett:  “Did you interview Ms Pham in relation to the complaint?”
Mr D’Intinosante:  “Yes, straight away.”

[13]      The Applicant issued a letter of response soon after to the company requesting that the

vi

warning be withdrawn as it was untrue. The letter indicated that the Applicant had witnesses

who can “disconfirm” such allegations. The Applicant states that she did not receive a

response to this letter and that no statement was taken from her about her point of view in

relation to the events.

[14]      Mr D’Intinosante also claims that there were at least 20 workers who refused to talk to

vii

the Applicant because of the way that she had treated them. When asked on cross

examination if he had complaints from all of those workers he replied “not-no, I haven’t got

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complaints but I got - we asked them. I didn’t put it on paper or anything”. When asked

why none of the women were present to give evidence Mr D’Intinosante replied “I couldn’t

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take everyone out of production”.

[15]      Mr D’Intinosante said that when he tried to give the Applicant the warning on 11

x

August 2015 the Applicant was aggressive and shouted at him. The Applicant claims that it

was she who approached Mr D’Intinosante to have the discussion and that he shouted at her

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and made her scared. In any case, it is clear that the Applicant did not accept the warning

and would not sign the warning.

[16]      Ms Soccio gave evidence that she did not investigate the circumstances surrounding

the warning at that stage, but did so after it was issued in light of the fact the Applicant

disputed it. It is not apparent that Ms Soccio sought out the witnesses referred to in the

Applicant’s letter who the Applicant claims could disconfirm the allegations. Ms Soccio

supplied her notes of her investigation which record the outcome of conversations with three

workers, all of whom made broadly similar claims about the Applicant making inappropriate

xii xiii
sexual references. Ms Soccio did not take a statement from the Applicant nor discuss with

the Applicant the allegations made by the other workers. Essentially, it appears Ms Soccio

interviewed the “few ladies who had made complaints” as indicated by Mr D’Intinosante,

recorded what they said and on that basis determined that the warning was warranted.

However, she did not discuss either the detailed claims made by the women or her

conclusions as to the investigation with the Applicant until 13 October 2015, the day the

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Applicant was dismissed. Her reason for doing so was that she and the Applicant were on

leave at various times during the intervening period and she did not know when the Applicant

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was returning to work.

[17]      I note it is not clear from the evidence when on 13 October 2015 Ms Soccio had the

discussion with the Applicant about the outcome of the investigation. This series of events is

most unsatisfactory. Matters of this importance, ultimately relied on by the Respondent for a

dismissal in this matter should be dealt with more expeditiously. It is difficult to understand

how in her role as Human Resources Manager, Ms Soccio could not know when an employee

was returning from holidays. This explanation for the delay was not plausible.

[2016] FWC 2267

The alleged refusal to obey a direction on 10 October 2015

[18]      Mr Pike gave evidence that on 10 October 2015, the Applicant attended for work and

started to set up within the packing room and that he then asked her to move to the cutting

room. In his statement, he claims that the Applicant refused saying “no” and said she wanted

to remain in the packing room. He informed her again that she was to move to the cutting

room and the Applicant did so. Later in the day, the Applicant returned to the packing room.

The Applicant was asked again by Mr Pike to return to the cutting room, however he states

that the Applicant indicated that she wanted to stay in the packing room and that “Jeff”

another Supervisor, had asked her to go to the packing room. Mr Pike again asked the

Applicant to go to the cutting room. The Applicant then left to go to a smoko break. It is not

disputed that the smoko break was at the scheduled time. After returning from her smoko

break, the Applicant left to go home as she felt sick.

[19]      I sought to clarify during the hearing with Mr Pike if it was his evidence that the

Applicant had twice refused to follow his directions. Mr Pikes’ response was “I answer like

this, the second time when I asked her as she did say Jeff said to her - because I asked her

why she was in the packing room, and she said Jeff sent her back and I said to her “I need you

xvi

to go back” so probably the second time she didn’t refuse because she went home…”

However, on re-examination Mr Pike claimed that during the morning the Applicant twice

xvii

refused to move rooms before ultimately moving.

[20]      The Applicant gave evidence that she was asked to move to the cutting room by Mr

Pike and that Mr Pike returned shortly after and observed she was still working there. He

asked why she was refusing to move and the Applicant claimed that she was not refusing to

move workstations, that she was either cleaning up her work area and/or removing a glove

and that she would then go to the cutting room. The Applicant denies that she refused to

move. Her evidence is that she did move to the cutting room after this second request, after

she had finished her clean up.

[21]      After two hours the Applicant returned to the packing room at the request of Mr Jeff

Rice. The Applicant claims that Mr Pike was then aggressive asking why she was back there.

The Applicant informed Mr Pike that he was sent there by Mr Rice and that Mr Pike then

went and spoke to Mr Rice and asked her to go on a break and then return to the butcher’s

room. Mr Younger’s evidence is that he did not know if Mr Rice asked the Applicant to return

xviii

to the packing room. However, Mr Pike confirmed during the hearing that he established

that Mr Pike had indeed sent the Applicant back to the packing room. The Applicant states

that she then felt unwell but did attend the cutting room for 20 minutes before going home.

The meetings of 13 October 2015

The first meeting

[22]      Mr Pike was concerned enough about the Applicant’s behaviour on 10 October 2015

that he called his supervisor Mr D’Intinosante at home because “…he was having problems

with the Applicant…not following instructions”. Mr D’Intinosante advised him to talk to Mr

Younger in relation to the way she was behaving. Mr Pike spoke to Mr Younger and also to

xix

Ms Soccio. As a result of those discussions he prepared a written warning Mr Pike then

arranged for Mr Younger and himself to meet with the Applicant to “…provide her with the

xx

warning and to explain the warning to her.” According to the Applicant, the meeting took
[2016] FWC 2267

place about three quarters of the time into her shift. Mr Younger did not know if the Applicant

xxi

was told about the meeting in advance or how much notice she was given.

[23]      Mr Pike states that he began the meeting by speaking in relation to the warning and the

Applicant then started yelling and disputing what he had said. The Applicant would not

accept the warning and became loud, argumentative and aggressive. She was abusive to both

he and Mr Younger, calling them both liars and that this continued for approximately 20

minutes.

[24]      Mr Younger’s evidence as to what happened at the meeting was broadly consistent

with that of Mr Pike, with the only real difference over whether the Applicant called both of

them or only Mr Pike a liar. Mr Younger couldn’t remember being called a liar. Irrespective,

Mr Younger said Mr Pike started to outline the issues in a calm and professional manner but

that the Applicant quickly became agitated. Mr Younger stated that the Applicant was loud,

aggressive, argumentative, rude and disrespectful. His attempts to calm the Applicant down

were unsuccessful. Ultimately, Mr Younger ended the meeting as he felt there was no point in

continuing given the behaviour of the Applicant. Both Mr Younger and Mr Pike were clearly

xxii

extremely concerned about the Applicants’ behaviour in the meeting.

[25]      In contrast, the Applicant states that she told both Mr Younger and Mr Pike that she

had not refused a direction but had to clean up her work area and/or remove a glove and then

go to the cutting room. Importantly, the Applicant claims that she was not argumentative with

Mr Younger or Mr Pike and that she attempted to convey her point of view fairly and with

respect at all times. On cross examination, the Applicant maintained this evidence stating that

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she was very calm. She disputed that she shouted at Mr Younger and Mr Pike and that she

called them liars. She stated, “I am just a worker, a small Vietnamese worker, how dare I

xxiv

shout at my supervisor?” During cross-examination, the Applicant also claimed that Mr

Younger said to her that if she didn’t accept that she didn’t listen to his instructions that they

xxv

would kick her out of the company. The Applicant indicated that she was “scared” during

xxvi

the meeting.

[26]      It is evident that there was some confusion as to what the Applicant was being warned

about and Mr Pike was asked if he ensured that the Applicant understood all elements of the

situation consistent with the employee disciplinary policy. Mr Pike replied “I did let her know

what was going on and the situation and I think she knew at the start but what she was

confused about is she thought I was giving her a warning for the second incident but it wasn't,

it was for the first incident and I think that's where the lot of confusion's come along and that's

where - it wasn't about the second incident, it was about the first incident”.

The second meeting

[27]      After the first meeting concluded, the Applicant returned to the workplace. Mr

Younger and Mr Pike then approached Ms Soccio, the Human Resources Manager, to discuss

the events which had occurred at the first meeting. Ms Soccio stated that she advised Mr

Younger that they needed to speak to the General Manager, David Palmer. None of the

Respondent’s witnesses gave evidence about what was discussed in the meeting with Mr

Palmer. A decision was then made to hold a further meeting regarding the Applicant’s

behaviour. This second meeting occurred some 45 minutes after the conclusion of the first

xxvii

meeting. The Applicant called her husband to attend this meeting and he did so. At the

hearing, the Applicant stated that she also asked the Union to attend but they could not make
[2016] FWC 2267

it to the meeting. None of the Respondent’s witnesses were aware of the request the Applicant

made for the Union to attend the meeting. Ms Soccio claims that prior to the meeting she

asked the Applicant to wait in the reception area but that the Applicant left reception and went

to pack her things as she believed she was going to be terminated. Ms Soccio told the

xxviii

Applicant to not jump to conclusions.

[28]      Shortly thereafter, the Applicant and her husband attended the second meeting. It is

not in dispute that the Applicant was upset and spent a good part of the meeting in tears. It is

also common ground that the Applicant maintained her position that she had not behaved

improperly at any time including during the meeting held earlier that day. The Applicant said

she was crying in the second meeting as she felt she has already been dismissed and that this

xxix

had an impact on her ability to speak during the meeting. Mr Younger said he couldn’t

explain the considerable change in behaviour between the first and the second meeting. Mr

Younger was unaware of the Applicant’s claim that she had sought to have the Union present

at the meeting.

[29]      Ms Soccio’s evidence is that the Applicant was informed that the Respondent was

proposing to terminate her employment “in light of her behaviour” and the Applicant was

given an opportunity to respond to this. The meeting was adjourned for 15 minutes and when

the Respondent’s representatives returned to the meeting the Applicant was informed that her

employment would be terminated. Mr Younger and Ms Soccio were adamant that the decision

to terminate the Applicant had not been made prior to the meeting.

Other relevant matters

[30]      The Applicant claimed during the hearing that on 12 August 2015 Mr Younger called

xxx

her to say that if there was a third warning she will be dismissed. This appears to be the

basis for the Applicant forming the view that if she accepted the third warning that she will be

dismissed. Mr Younger was asked if he told the Applicant on 12 August 2015 that she would

xxxi

be dismissed if she received any further warnings to which he replied “I can’t remember”.

[31]      There was some controversy as to the Applicant’s fluency in English. Ms Soccio

described the Applicant as “quite fluent” in English. In her statement the Applicant indicates

that she is “…from Vietnam and do not speak good English”. The Applicant provided a

statement to the Fair Work Commission (the Commission) in English which she said she

xxxii

understood “…with the help of my husband and my kids”. She confirmed that she used

English when communicating with her work supervisors and that they are able to make

themselves understood and vice versa. The Applicant agreed with Mr McNab that she spoke

xxxiii

with a Vietnamese accent and that her “voice was not the Queen’s English”.

Employee Counselling/Disciplinary Procedure Policy

[32]      The Respondent’s Employee Counselling/Disciplinary Procedure Policy was tendered

xxxiv

in the proceedings. The procedure includes the following:

“3.1 Counselling

The Manager/Supervisor/Coordinator/Line Supervisors will conduct informal

counselling meetings in private with the employee. On occasions, the

Manager/Supervisor/Coordinator/Line Supervisors or the employee may feel the

[2016] FWC 2267

meeting and objectives may be assisted by the involvement of the Human Resources

Manager in which case he/she will attend.

3.2 Disciplinary Warnings

On occasions, such counselling may not lead to improved and acceptable levels of

performance or conduct. In this circumstance, formal counselling meetings with the

potential of formal disciplinary action will commence. Formal counselling has the

same aims as informal counselling but is distinguished by the fact it may result in

formal disciplinary action and written warnings that may lead to termination of

employment.

The Human Resources Manager will attend any meeting in which it is anticipated that

formal disciplinary action may be an outcome. The Human Resources Manager, or an

alternative representative, may be present at disciplinary meetings. A witness or

support person of their choice may attend the meeting with the employee but that

person must not be an advocate for the employee.

Prior to any such meeting the employee will be formally advised of the reasons for the

meeting and that formal disciplinary action may be an outcome.

However, because often the seriousness of a matter only becomes apparent during a

meeting, it cannot be guaranteed that an employee would be pre-warned of the

possible outcome of a meeting. By the same token, an employee may be pre-warned

that disciplinary action may be an outcome but it is not because the discussion reveals

that such is not warranted in the circumstances.

If disciplinary action is seen as an appropriate outcome, the question of whether a first

(or second, third, etc), final written warning or termination of employment is

appropriate will be determined after full consideration of the facts, the seriousness of

the matter, the employee’s response to concerns and any other mitigating factors.

On occasion the nature of concerns with an employee’s conduct may, if substantiated,

amount to serious misconduct. In these cases the employee will be stood down on full

pay pending a thorough investigation of the concerns and a finding on the issue of

serious misconduct. An employee whilst stood down may be required to attend work

for an interview (s). SRS Pty Ltd will endeavour to complete an investigation as

quickly as is possible having regard to the need to give all parties and witnesses due

process.”

[33]      Further, the policy provides for a two-step approach to disciplinary action, the first

step involves an initial disciplinary discussion where there is a discussion about the issues

relating to the employees performance or conduct. The second step is the point at which, if

the company deems further action is warranted, a subsequent meeting then should be held by

the Manager with the employee and it is during that meeting that the employee is to be

advised, among other things what disciplinary action is to be taken.

THE LAW TO BE APPLIED

[34]      Section 385 of the Act sets out what constitutes an unfair dismissal:

[2016] FWC 2267

“Division 3—What is an unfair dismissal

385 What is an unfair dismissal

A person has been unfairly dismissed if the FWC is satisfied that:

(a) the person has been dismissed; and

(b) the dismissal was harsh, unjust or unreasonable; and

(c) the dismissal was not consistent with the Small Business Fair Dismissal

Code; and

(d) the dismissal was not a case of genuine redundancy.

Note: For the definition of consistent with the Small Business Fair Dismissal Code:

see section 388.

387 Criteria for considering harshness etc.

In considering whether it is satisfied that a dismissal was harsh, unjust or

unreasonable, the FWC must take into account:

(a) whether there was a valid reason for the dismissal related to the person’s

capacity or conduct (including its effect on the safety and welfare of other

employees); and

(b) whether the person was notified of that reason; and

(c) whether the person was given an opportunity to respond to any reason

related to the capacity or conduct of the person; and

(d) any unreasonable refusal by the employer to allow the person to have a

support person present to assist at any discussions relating to dismissal; and

(e) if the dismissal related to unsatisfactory performance by the person—

whether the person had been warned about that unsatisfactory performance

before the dismissal; and

(f) the degree to which the size of the employer’s enterprise would be likely to

impact on the procedures followed in effecting the dismissal; and

(g) the degree to which the absence of dedicated human resource management

specialists or expertise in the enterprise would be likely to impact on the

procedures followed in effecting the dismissal; and

(h) any other matters that the FWC considers relevant.”

[2016] FWC 2267

[35]      With regard to s.385(a) of the Act; s.386 of the Act sets out the meaning of

“dismissed”. It is not in dispute that the Applicant was dismissed by the Respondent.

[36]      With regard to s.385(c), as discussed above the Respondent was not a small business

at the time of dismissal, within the meaning of s.23 of the Act. Therefore, the application of

the Small Business Fair Dismissal Code is not relevant.

[37]      With regard to s.385(d), there was no suggestion that the Applicant’s dismissal was a

case of genuine redundancy. Section 385(d) does not apply in this matter.

[38] The matter for determination is whether the dismissal was harsh, unjust or

unreasonable (s.385(b)).

CONSIDERATION

Was the dismissal harsh, unjust and unreasonable? (s. 385(b))

[39]      As set out above, the criteria for considering whether a dismissal was harsh, unjust or

unreasonable is set out in s.387 of the Act.

Section 387(a) - whether there was a valid reason for the dismissal related to the

person’s capacity or conduct (including its effect on the safety and welfare of other

employees).

The alleged conduct in 2011

[40]      Mr D’Intinosante was clear in the warning he issued that the Applicant could not work

more than 8.5 hours per day and that is the basis for the directions that the Applicant sign off.

However, the Doctor’s certificate in evidence does not limit the Applicant’s hours of work to

8.5 hours but to “normal hours”. Mr D’Intinosante was asked about the certificate and

whether he took it into consideration. Mr D’Intinosante said he couldn’t remember that far

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back.

[41]      I am satisfied that the direction to sign off was issued by Mr D’Intinosante and that the

Applicant refused the direction. I am not satisfied that the direction to sign off issued by Mr

D’Intinosante, albeit lawful, was a reasonable direction in light of the work capacity

certificate. Consequently, I am not satisfied that the alleged conduct in 2011 is a valid reason

for dismissal.

Alleged unprofessional conduct and allegations of swearing, arguing and making

unwelcome sexual references in Vietnamese on 11 August 2015

[42]      To determine a valid reason relating to conduct, the Commission must determine

whether, on the balance of probabilities, the conduct allegedly engaged in by the employer

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actually occurred. The test is not whether the employer believed on reasonable grounds,

after sufficient inquiry, that the employee was guilty of the misconduct. The Commission

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must make a finding as to whether the conduct occurred based on the evidence before it.

A recent Full Bench decision reaffirmed the requirement for the Commission to make

findings as to whether or not the alleged conduct occurred on the evidence before the

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Commission where critical facts are in dispute. In that decision, the Full Bench found
[2016] FWC 2267

that the Vice President was in error to rely on findings that the employer believed on

reasonable grounds that the employee was guilty of the conduct that resulted in the

termination.

[43]      In this matter, I have the evidence of the Applicant who is strenuous in her denial that

she did not engage in the conduct as alleged. There is the evidence of Mr D’Intinosante who

spoke to a “couple of the ladies” and was satisfied that it did occur. I have the investigation of

Ms Soccio which appears to be a record of conversation with the three women who made the

complaints. It is not apparent the investigation of Ms Soccio included a discussion with the

persons who the Applicant advised in her letter could support her side of the story. No

statement from the Applicant was taken nor was she given the opportunity to respond to the

findings made by Ms Soccio. The findings of the investigation were apparently made known

to her on the day of the dismissal.

[44]      In the circumstances, whether the employers’ belief that the Applicant was guilty of

the misconduct was reasonable is debatable. However, this is not the test as the authorities

make clear. I have sworn evidence from the Applicant disputing the allegations. However, not

one of the women who made the complaints gave evidence at the hearing. The investigation

was far from satisfactory. The recounting from Mr D’Intinosante of conversations he had with

the women and the notes of Ms Soccio cannot be relied upon as a basis for finding the

conduct occurred against the Applicant sworn denials. On balance, I cannot be satisfied that

the conduct did occur. It follows that this cannot form part of any valid reason for dismissal.

Other alleged complaints

[45]      Mr D’Intinosante made vague allegations about “at least 20 workers who refused to

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talk to the Applicant because of the way she treated them”. None of these un-named

women were called to give evidence. There is no basis to find that the Applicant engaged in

this other conduct as suggested in paragraph 8 of Mr D’Intinosante’s statement. Mr

D’Intinosante also made a general claim that his experience working with the Applicant is

that she is very argumentative and difficult to direct. No further evidence is provided in

support of this general claim. There is little evidence dealing with and other claims. It is

apparent from the letter of termination these matters were not relied on as a basis for the

termination of employment. Overall I consider the other complaints about the conduct of the

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applicant fall short of a sound a defensible reason.

The events of 10 October

[46]      It is not in dispute that the Applicant was asked to move the cutting room on two

occasions by Mr Pike and that she understood the instruction to do so. It is also not in

contention that the request was both lawful and reasonable. The Applicant claims that she did

not refuse the direction, that she was either cleaning up and/or removing a glove. I found the

evidence of the Applicant on this point somewhat inconsistent and unconvincing. However,

there is some contention as to whether Mr Pike asked the Applicant three times to move

rooms, two of which she refused. During the hearing, Mr Pike was somewhat confused with

his evidence in terms of the number of directions given and refused. However, his witness

statement was clear that she refused once but then complied with the second request. This

version of events was consistent with the text of the written warning and also consistent with

xli

Mr Pike’s answer to my questioning about whether the Applicant refused twice. On
[2016] FWC 2267

balance, I think the evidence favours a finding that there was a single refusal in the first

instance by the Applicant of a lawful and reasonable direction to move to the cutting room.

The Applicants alleged behaviour in the meeting of 10 October

[47]      The Applicant was adamant that she did not behave in the manner alleged in the first

meeting. However, her evidence on this point is completely at odds with the generally

consistent evidence of Mr Younger and Mr Pike. Both men were clearly taken aback by the

behaviour of the Applicant. Their testimony as to what happened at the meeting was

consistent and plausible and I prefer their version of what occurred in the meeting over that of

the Applicant.

Conclusion on valid reason

[48]      Having regard to the consideration above, I am satisfied that the Applicant refused a

single direction to attend the cutting room on 10 October 2015. However, when asked a

second time, she complied with the direction. At the meeting on 13 October 2015 convened to

discuss the Applicant’s behaviour I am satisfied that the Applicant behaved in the manner

contended by the Respondent. I am not satisfied for the reasons set out that the Applicant is

guilty of the other allegations of misconduct.

xlii

[49] To be a valid reason for dismissal, it must be sound, defensible and well founded. If

the Respondent were to dismiss the Applicant solely for the reason of failing to comply with

the direction when first asked to move rooms then that would not meet that test. Indeed, it is

clear that the Respondent did not intend to dismiss the Applicant for that conduct but rather to

warn her. It is apparent that it was the response of the Applicant during that discussion about

the warning that the Respondent sought to issue, and the failure of the Applicant to

acknowledge her conduct in the first meeting, that led to the dismissal. I am satisfied that in

combination, the conduct of the Applicant in refusing the direction, her conduct in the first

meeting and importantly her refusal to make any concessions whatsoever about her behaviour

satisfy me that there was a valid reason for the dismissal.

Section 387(b) - whether the person was notified of that reason.

[50]      Notification of the valid reason to terminate must be given to the employee before the

xliii xliv
decision to terminate is made and in explicit and plain and clear terms. It was put to the

Respondent’s witnesses that they had already made the decision to terminate the Applicant

before they attended the second meeting. All of the Respondent’s witnesses refuted that

suggestion. There is no evidence to suggest that the decision to terminate was made before the

second meeting commenced.

[51]      In the first meeting, it is clear the Respondent intended to warn the Applicant rather

than terminate her. At the second meeting, the Applicant’s evidence is that she was told by Mr

Younger that as a result of her behaviour being unacceptable she would be terminated. The

xlv

Applicant’s representative accepts that the Applicant was notified of the reason.

[2016] FWC 2267

Section 387(c) - whether the person was given an opportunity to respond to any reason

related to the capacity or conduct of the person.

[52]      The Applicant was given an opportunity to respond to the reason for the dismissal to

the extent that related to her behaviour at the first meeting. However, it is apparent that there

was some level of confusion at the first meeting as to exactly what the Applicant was

responding to as well as difficulties with the English language translation. While the

Applicant’s argumentative response at the first meeting is not excusable, there was confusion

about whether she was being warned about failure to abide by the second direction, despite

her returning to the packing room at the direction of Mr Rice. There was some controversy

about the Applicant’s fluency in English. While the Applicant conceded that her “voice was

not of the Queen’s English”, I note that if her Majesty is the benchmark then none in the

hearing room that day would reach it. I am satisfied that the Applicant was able to speak

English to a level where she was able to make herself understood and understand general

conversation in the work environment. Certainly it was clear enough that she understood the

instructions from Mr Pike to move to the cutting room. However, it is likely that English as a

second language played a part in contributing to the confusion in the first meeting as to

exactly what the Applicant was being warned about. I am satisfied that this factor and the fear

of the Applicant contributed to her response.

Section 387(d) - any unreasonable refusal by the employer to allow the person to have a

support person present to assist at any discussions relating to dismissal.

[53]      There was no refusal to allow a support person. The Applicant’s husband was present

at the second meeting. The respondent was unaware of efforts the Applicant claims to have

made to have the Union present.

Section 387(e) - if the dismissal related to unsatisfactory performance by the person -

whether the person had been warned about that unsatisfactory performance before the

dismissal.

[54]      While some references were made by the Respondent to the Applicant’s performance,

it does not appear that this was a consideration in the decision to dismiss the Applicant. This

is a neutral consideration.

Section 387(f) - the degree to which the size of the employer’s enterprise would be likely

to impact on procedures followed in effecting the dismissal and Section 387(g) - the

degree to which the absence of dedicated human resource management specialists or

expertise in the enterprise would be likely to impact on the procedures followed in

effecting the dismissal

[55]      The Respondent is a medium size business and has a Human Resources Specialist. The

Respondent submits and I agree that the size of the Respondent’s enterprise did not have an

impact on the procedures followed in affecting the dismissal of the Applicant.

Section 387(h) - any other matters FWA considers relevant.

[56] The Respondent has an Employee Counselling/Disciplinary Procedure Policy.

However, the Respondent did not comply with this policy. The Applicant was given no

warning prior to the first meeting on 13 October, as required by the policy, that she was to be
[2016] FWC 2267

given a disciplinary warning. The Applicant had clearly formed the view that this meant she

had three warnings and was to be dismissed which contributed to her fears about what exactly

was happening.

[57]      Furthermore, there was a failure on behalf of the Respondent to adhere to the two-step

process contemplated in the disciplinary policy. Had the process been followed, this may have

reduced the fear and confusion experienced by the Applicant in the first meeting and perhaps

the outcome could have been different. I consider the failure of the Respondent to follow the

policy is a relevant factor in the consideration.

[58]      Also relevant is that the Applicant is a long serving employee of 10 years. She has two

dependent children. The evidence supports a finding that her work history has been

unblemished other than the events around the time of her dismissal.

Conclusion as to the nature of dismissal

[59]      For the reasons set out above, I find that the Respondent did have a valid reason to

dismiss the Applicant from her employment. I do not think that the dismissal was unjust. I am

satisfied she was notified of the reason for the dismissal. Performance was not relied on as a

basis for dismissal. A support person attended the second meeting. There was a dedicated

Human Resources Specialist and the size of the enterprise did not have an impact on the

procedures followed.

[60]      However, the dismissal was unreasonable as there were procedural flaws in affecting

the dismissal and there was not, in all the circumstances, a satisfactory opportunity for the

Applicant to respond. The dismissal was harsh, as the Applicant was a long serving employee

and other than the recent events had a good work record.

Remedy

[61]      Having found that the dismissal was harsh and unreasonable, I must now turn to the

appropriate remedy to order.

[62]      The relevant provisions of the Act pertaining to remedy are contained in s.390 of the

Act:
“390  When the FWC may order remedy for unfair dismissal
(1)  Subject to subsection (3), the FWC may order a person’s reinstatement, or the
payment of compensation to a person, if:
(a) the FWC is satisfied that the person was protected from unfair

dismissal (see Division 2) at the time of being dismissed; and

(b) the person has been unfairly dismissed (see Division 3).
(2) The FWC may make the order only if the person has made an application

under section 394.

(3) The FWC must not order the payment of compensation to the person unless:

[2016] FWC 2267

(a) the FWC is satisfied that reinstatement of the person is inappropriate;
and
(b) the FWC considers an order for payment of compensation is

appropriate in all the circumstances of the case.

Note: Division 5 deals with procedural matters such as applications for remedies.”

[63]      It is also necessary to consider the Objects of Part 3-2 of the Act especially s.381(c) of

the Act which provides that an object of that Part of the Act is to provide remedies if a

dismissal is found to be unfair, with an emphasis on reinstatement.

[64]      The presumption in the legislation is that, should a dismissal be found to be unfair,

that reinstatement is the primary remedy and that compensation is a secondary consideration

if reinstatement is not appropriate.

[65]      In this matter, the Applicant does not seek reinstatement. The Applicant submitted that

while reinstatement was sought at the time of the hearing it is no longer sought as the

Applicant has secured further employment. The Respondent opposes reinstatement. In the

circumstances I do not consider reinstatement to be an appropriate remedy.

[66]      Having determined that reinstatement is not appropriate I must consider what

compensation, if any, is payable, in lieu of reinstatement.

[67]      The Act provides for compensation as a remedy for unfair dismissal.

“392 Remedy—compensation

Compensation

(1) An order for the payment of compensation to a person must be an order that

the person’s employer at the time of the dismissal pay compensation to the person in

lieu of reinstatement.

Criteria for deciding amounts

(2) In determining an amount for the purposes of an order under subsection (1),

the FWC must take into account all the circumstances of the case including:

(a) the effect of the order on the viability of the employer’s enterprise; and
(b) the length of the person’s service with the employer; and
(c) the remuneration that the person would have received, or would have

been likely to receive, if the person had not been dismissed; and

(d) the efforts of the person (if any) to mitigate the loss suffered by the

person because of the dismissal; and

[2016] FWC 2267

(e) the amount of any remuneration earned by the person from

employment or other work during the period between the dismissal and the

making of the order for compensation; and

(f) the amount of any income reasonably likely to be so earned by the

person during the period between the making of the order for compensation

and the actual compensation; and

(g) any other matter that the FWC considers relevant.

Misconduct reduces amount

(3) If the FWC is satisfied that misconduct of a person contributed to the

employer’s decision to dismiss the person, the FWC must reduce the amount it would

otherwise order under subsection (1) by an appropriate amount on account of the

misconduct.

Shock, distress etc. disregarded

(4) The amount ordered by the FWC to be paid to a person under subsection (1)

must not include a component by way of compensation for shock, distress or

humiliation, or other analogous hurt, caused to the person by the manner of the

person’s dismissal.

Compensation cap

(5) The amount ordered by the FWC to be paid to a person under subsection (1)

must not exceed the lesser of:

(a) the amount worked out under subsection (6); and
(b) half the amount of the high income threshold immediately before the

dismissal.

Note: subsection 392(5) indexed to $68,350 from 1 July 2016

(6) The amount is the total of the following amounts:
(a) the total amount of remuneration:

(i)          received by the person; or

(ii)         to which the person was entitled;

(whichever is higher) for any period of employment with the employer during

the 26 weeks immediately before the dismissal; and

(b) if the employee was on leave without pay or without full pay while so

employed during any part of that period—the amount of remuneration taken to
[2016] FWC 2267

have been received by the employee for the period of leave in accordance with

the regulations.”

“393 Monetary orders may be in instalments

To avoid doubt, an order by the FWC under subsection 391(3) or 392(1) may permit

the employer concerned to pay the amount required in instalments specified in the

order.”

[68]      In determining the amount of compensation to be awarded, if any, I must have regard

to all the circumstances of the case including each of the paragraphs in s.392(2) of the Act as

xlvi

set out above. No one matter is paramount but regard must still be had to each of them.

[69]      The general approach to the calculation of compensation was well set out by the Full

xlvii

Bench in Tabro Meat Pty Ltd v Kevin Heffernan and I will follow that approach in
determining this matter.

Section 392(2)(c) - the remuneration that the person would have received or would have

been likely to receive, if the person had not been dismissed.

[70]      The Applicant’s remuneration at the time she was dismissed was $42,048.76 plus

xlviii

9.5% superannuation. I will use this amount as the basis for calculating the amount of

compensation to be awarded in this case.

[71]      The Applicant submitted that there is no reason to believe that, had the Applicant not

been terminated on 13 October 2015, the Applicant would not have continued in her

employment with the Respondent. The Respondent submits that the employment was unlikely

to have continued for any significant period having regard to the attitude of the Applicant to

her supervisors and her fellow workers and the previous warnings issued. In light of my

findings as to the Applicant’s misconduct and her lack of insight into her behaviour, I think it

unlikely that the Applicant would have continued in employment for any significant period

had she not been dismissed. I have determined that the Applicant would have been employed

were it not for the dismissal for a further 10 weeks.

[72]      Accordingly, I calculate the remuneration that the Applicant would have received or

would have been likely to receive, if her employment had not been terminated, at $8,086.30

plus 9. 5% superannuation.

Section 392(2)(e) - the amount of any remuneration earned by the person from

employment or other work during the period between the dismissal and the

making of the order for compensation and s.392(2)(f) - the amount of any

income reasonably likely to be so earned by the person during the period

between the making of the order for compensation and the actual compensation

[73]      In the circumstances of this matter, subsections 392(2)(e) and 392(2)(f) can be dealt

with together. The Applicant gave evidence that she had been unemployed from the time of

the dismissal up until the time of the hearing in February 2016.
[2016] FWC 2267

[74]      At the time she was dismissed, the Applicant was paid four weeks in lieu of notice in

the amount of $3,234.52. There is no evidence that the Applicant earned any other

remuneration during the relevant period.

xlix,

[75] In Ellawalla v Australian Postal Corporation with respect to a precursor provision,

the Full Bench stated that “[o]nly monies earned during the period from termination until the

end of the anticipated period of employment are deducted”.

[76]      The anticipated period of employment was 10 weeks. The monies earned during that

period are the $3,234.52 paid in lieu of notice. Deducting this amount from the provisional

amount of compensation of $8,086.30 leaves an amount of $4,851.78 plus 9.5%

superannuation less tax.

Section 392(2)(g) - any other matter that FWA considers relevant

l

[77] Ordinarily a deduction for contingencies is appropriate. However, contingencies only

li

apply to the anticipated period of employment. The anticipated period of employment had

concluded prior to the hearing taking place in this matter. A deduction for contingencies is not

appropriate.

[78]      There are no other matters that are relevant to the determination of compensation other

than ss.392(2)(a),(b) and (d), 392(3) and 392(5) of the Act. I will turn to those factors now.

Section 392(2)(a) - the effect of the order on the viability of the employer’s enterprise

[79]      Evidence should be produced in order for the Commission to properly consider this

lii

issue.

[80]      There was no submission that any order would impact on the viability of the

Respondent’s enterprise and I make no deduction on that basis.

Section 392(2)(b) - the length of the persons service with the employer

[81]      The Applicant was employed by the Respondent for approximately 10 years. This is a

significant period of service and does not warrant a further deduction.

Section 392(2)(d) - the efforts of the person (if any) to mitigate the loss suffered by the

person because of the dismissal

[82]      Evidence was provided by the Applicant as to the efforts she went to in the period

after the dismissal to secure alternative employment. Her evidence was that she applied for a

job on 14 October 2015 and received a rejection of that application on 16 October 2015. The

Applicant gave evidence that she had applied for four or five jobs since she was dismissed.

The Applicant had not made a job application since 14 December 2015 because she said she

was busy with these proceedings and wanted to wait for these proceedings to conclude before

liii

making further applications.

[83]      I am not satisfied that the Applicant was making any significant effort to mitigate the

loss from 14 December 2015. However, the Applicant did apply for a number of jobs prior to

this time and she did undertake some induction training on 5 January 2016 but was
[2016] FWC 2267

unsuccessful in securing employment with that employer. Overall, I consider that the lack of

effort of the Applicant to mitigate the loss warrants a further deduction of 10%. Deducting

this amount from the provisional amount of compensation of $4,851.78 leaves an amount of

$4,366.60 plus 9.5% superannuation less tax.

Misconduct (s.392(3))

[84]      I have found that the Applicant was dismissed for a valid reason related to misconduct.

The Respondent’s representative submitted that the deduction for misconduct should be

significant due to the nature of the misconduct. The Applicant’s representative submitted in

her closing submissions that the Applicant recognised the level of concern raised by the

Respondent in relation to her conduct at work and that the Applicant be paid compensation

with a reduction to recognise the impact of the events of October 2015 on the Respondent,

without an admission of liability. The Applicant submits that an appropriate reduction would

be in the range of 10-15%.

[85]      Having regard to the proven misconduct of the Applicant, I have determined to reduce

the compensation amount by a further 15%. This leaves an amount of $3,711.61.

Compensation Cap (s.392(5))

[86]      The compensation cap is set in section 392(5) of the Act. The amount ordered to be

paid by the Commission must not exceed the lesser of:

 the total amount of remuneration either received by the person, or to which the

person is entitled, for any period of employment with the employer during the 26

weeks immediately before the dismissal, and

 half the amount of the high income threshold immediately before the dismissal.

[87]      The amount of compensation under consideration is considerably less than the relevant

compensation cap in this case, being the amount of remuneration to which the person is

entitled for the 26 weeks before the dismissal.

Conclusion and order as to remedy

[88]      I find that reinstatement is not an appropriate remedy in this case.

[89]      I find that an order for compensation is appropriate.

[90]      I am satisfied that an order for payment of compensation by the Respondent of

$3,711.61 plus 9.5% superannuation less tax as required by law, to the Applicant in lieu of

reinstatement is appropriate in all the circumstances of the case. It accords a fair go all round

to both the Respondent and the Applicant.
[2016] FWC 2267

[91]      The compensation payment, less any required deduction in taxation, is to be made

within 14 days of this decision. An order will be issued concurrently with this decision.

COMMISSIONER
Appearances:
Ms Kennett of The Australasian Meat Industry Employees Union for the Applicant
Mr McNab of Counsel for the Respondent
Hearing details:
2016.
Melbourne.
February 4.
2016.
Melbourne.
February 3.
Final written submissions:
3 March 2016.
Printed by authority of the Commonwealth Government Printer
<Price code C, PR578932>
xi

PN211

xii

Exhibit M3, Statement of Chiara Soccio, Attachment CS1

xiii

PN611

xiv

PN577

xv

PN578

xvi

PN922

xvii

PN789, PN934

xviii

PN492

xix

Exhibit K1, Statement of Hoa Thi Pham, Attachment HTP-8

xx

Exhibit M4, Statement of Kevin Edwin Pike, [10]

xxi

PN422

xxii

Exhibit M4, Statement of Kevin Edwin Pike, [11], Exhibit M2, Statement of Shane William Younger, [4]

xxiii

PN73, PN79

xxiv

PN77

xxv

PN92

xxvi

PN124

xxvii

PN496

xxviii

Exhibit M3, Statement of Chiara Soccio, [13]

xxix

PN320

xxx

PN253

xxxi

PN415

xxxii

PN39

xxxiii

PN50

xxxiv

Exhibit K2, Employee Counselling/Disciplinary Procedure Policy

xxxv

PN366

xxxvi

Edwards v Giudice (1999) 94 FCR 561 [6]‒[7]. See also Rail Corporation New South Wales v Vrettos (2008) 176 IR 129

[27]; Container Terminals Australia Ltd v Toby (unreported, AIRCFB, Boulton J, Marsh SDP, Jones C, 24 July 2000)

Print S8434 [13]

xxxvii

King v Freshmore (Vic) Pty Ltd (unreported, AIRCFB, Ross VP, Williams SDP, Hingley C, 17 March 2000) Print

S4213 [24]

xxxviii

Singh v Metro T/A Metro Trains Melbourne [2015] FWCFB 6711

xxxix

Exhibit M1, Statement of Robert D’Intinosante, [8]

xl

Selvachandran v Peteron Plastics Pty Ltd (1995) 62 IR 371, 373

xli

PN922

xlii

Selvachandran v Peteron Plastics Pty Ltd (1995) 62 IR 371, 373

xliii

Crozier v Palazzo Corporation Pty Ltd (2000) 98 IR 137, 151 [70]‒[73]

xliv

Previsic v Australian Quarantine Inspection Services (unreported, AIRC, Holmes C, 6 October 1998) Print Q3730

xlv

Applicant’s Outline of Submissions filed 14 December 2015 [15]

xlvi

Tempo Services Limited v T.M. Klooger and Others, PR953337, [22]

xlvii

[2011] FWAFB 1080.

xlviii

Exhibit K1, Statement of Hoa Thi Pham, Attachment HTP-9

xlix

Ellawalla v Australian Postal Corporation, Print S5109

l

Slifka v J W Sanders Pty Limited (1995) 67 IR 316 [328]

li

Enhance Systems Pty Ltd v Cox (unreported, AIRCFB, Williams SDP, Acton SDP, Gay C, 31 October 2001) PR910779

[39]; citing Ellawala v Australian Postal Corporation (unreported AIRC, Ross VP, Williams SDP, Gay C, 17 April

2000) Print S5109 [43]

lii

D.A. Moore v Highpace Pty Ltd (unreported, AIRCFB, Boulton J, Watson SDP, Whelan C, 18 May 1998) Print Q0871

liii

PN305

i

Exhibit K1, Statement of Hoa Thi Pham, Attachment HTP-5

ii

Exhibit K1, Statement of Hoa Thi Pham, Attachment HTP-1

iii

Exhibit K1, Statement of Hoa Thi Pham, Attachment HTP-2

iv

PN366

v

Exhibit M1, Statement of Robert D’Intinosante, [5]

vi

Exhibit K1, Statement of Hoa Thi Pham, Attachment HTP-6

vii

Exhibit M1, Statement of Robert D’Intinosante, [8]

viii

PN387

ix

PN389

x

Exhibit M1, Statement of Robert D’Intinosante, [7]

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