Director of Public Prosecutions v Reynolds&Anor

[2017] VCC 579

IN THE COUNTY COURT OF VICTORIA  Revised
(Not) Restricted
 Suitable for Publication

AT MELBOURNE
CRIMINAL JURISDICTION

CR -16-01636

DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS

v

JAKE REYNOLDS
REBECCA WELSH

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JUDGE:	HER HONOUR JUDGE GAYNOR
WHERE HELD:	Melbourne
DATE OF HEARING:
DATE OF SENTENCE:	12 May 2017
CASE MAY BE CITED AS:	DPP v Reynolds&Anor
MEDIUM NEUTRAL CITATION:	[2017] VCC 579

REASONS FOR SENTENCE
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Subject:
Catchwords:
Legislation Cited:
Cases Cited:
Sentence:

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APPEARANCES:	Counsel	Solicitors
For the Director of Public Prosecutions	Ms D. Karamicov
For Accused Reynolds	Ms F. Todd
For Accused Welsh	Ms S. Poulter

HER HONOUR:

1Jake Reynolds, you have pleaded guilty to one charge of theft and one charge of attempted robbery. 

2Rebecca Welsh, you have pleaded guilty to two charges of assisting an offender. 

3I now turn to the facts underlying this offending. 

4The two of you have been friends since primary school.  You were both 24 and 23 years old respectively, at the time that the offences were committed in May 2016.

5On 18 May 2016, one Karim Al Zanati, listed two Samsung Galaxy S6 Edge mobile phones for sale on the Gumtree website, providing his mobile phone as a contact.  He received a call from a male, who it is accepted was you, Jake Reynolds.  He agreed to sell his two mobile phones to you for $650 each and arranged to meet him at the Caltex service station on the corner of High and Fenton Street in Huntingdale.

6Text messages were then exchanged.  On 24 May 2016, the date that it was agreed you would all meet, you Ms Welsh, drove a silver Mitsubishi Lancer, in which Mr Reynolds was a passenger, which was intercepted by police on the way to this meeting.  The two of you gave your names to police.  You then arrived at the Caltex service station at about 3.09 pm, at which time you were in the front passenger seat, Reynolds.  There was a third unknown person in the rear passenger seat.

7Mr Al Zanati arrived and approached the front passenger seat of the car.  You, Reynolds, got out of the car and asked to see the phones.  Mr Al Zanati gave you one of the phones, which you eventually tossed over to Ms Welsh inside the car.  Your actions in doing this underlie Charge 1 on the indictment, theft. 

8You then produced a knife from the car and put it to Mr Al Zanati's throat, demanding that he give you both phones, "Now".  Mr Al Zanati put the second phone behind his back.  At this stage, one Michael Gritzalis had arrived at the service station in his truck, saw what was happening and went to Mr Al Zanati's aide.  When you, Reynolds, saw Mr Gritzalis approach, you got back into the car and you and Welsh immediately drove off.  Your actions in relation to the second phone underlie the Charge 2 on the indictment, attempted armed robbery. 

9Your actions in driving Mr Reynolds to the service station, underlie Charge 1 on the indictment against you, Ms Welsh, that is, of assisting offender in relation to the crime of theft, and in driving him away, Charge 2, assist offender, attempted armed robbery. 

10Mr Al Zanati was able to take several photographs of the car, which included the number plate.

11On May 31 2016, police executed a search warrant at your home, Ms Welsh, where they found the two of you- you, Reynolds, hiding under the bed.  You were arrested and taken to the Oakleigh Police Station.  Various items relevant to the offending were seized from your home.  Analysis of your telephones also showed the involvement, particularly by you, Mr Reynolds, in this matter. 

12In records of interview conducted with you, you, Mr Reynolds, made a
"no comment" record of interview, whilst you, Ms Welsh, denied any involvement in the offending, initially denying knowing Mr Reynolds, but then saying he had been your best friend since primary school, but refusing to say anything further. 

13The maximum penalty for theft is ten years' imprisonment.  The maximum penalty for attempted armed robbery is 20 years' imprisonment.  The maximum penalty for assisting an offender is five years' imprisonment. 

14The two of you entered pleas of guilty after a contested committal hearing in the Magistrates' Court on 19 September 2016.  It is accepted that whilst you should be given some credit for this, this was not a plea entered at the earliest opportunity.  

15You, Mr Reynolds, have been remanded in custody since 31 May 2016.  You, Ms Welsh, have been on bail since you were arrested. 

16I now turn to the personal circumstances of each of you. But before doing so, I also note that you, Mr Reynolds, pleaded guilty to the summary charge of committing an indictable offence whilst on bail and to failing to report whilst on bail, which offences were uplifted with your consent, pursuant to s.145 of the Criminal Procedure Act. 

17You, Ms Welsh, also pleaded guilty to a charge of committing an offence, an indictable offence whilst on bail and on failing to report whilst on bail. 

18That is right, is it not?

19MS POULTER:  No, sorry, Your Honour, drive whilst suspended.

20HER HONOUR:  I am sorry.

21MS POULTER:  And a breach conduct condition of bail.  Sorry, Your Honour.

22HER HONOUR:  I beg your pardon.  I withdraw that. 

23You, Ms Welsh, also pleaded guilty to the summary charges of driving whilst disqualified and of failing to report whilst on bail. 

24I now turn to the personal circumstances of each of you.  Beginning with you, Mr Reynolds.  You are now 26 years of age.  You are the eldest of three children born to your parents.  You have two younger sisters.  You are the only member of your family ever to be in trouble with police. 

25Your father had the occupation of bricklayer until your mother became extremely ill with motor neurone disease.  Ultimately she died in 2016, but was in palliative care and your father essentially stopped working in order to care for you mother in the last stages of this very serious illness. 

26You told psychologist, Dr Prashant Pandurang, whose reports dated
16 November 2016 and 21 April, were tendered on the plea, that you had
a happy home, but suffered severe bullying whilst you were at school and on finishing school, you completed an apprenticeship in bricklaying for three years and qualified as a bricklayer, working with your father for the next two years. 

27However, you had begun using drugs, specifically ice, from the time you were about 19.  You told Dr Pandurang that initially your use of it was sporadic, but it gradually increased over the years, to the point where you were smoking and injecting ice, at the rate of about one gram a day, up to the time that you committed these offences and just before you were incarcerated.  Indeed it appears to be common ground that this offending was carried out in order to obtain funds for your offending. 

28Turning to your prior criminal history.  It is not particularly extensive, in that the only time you have been before a court previously was on 18 December 2015, when you were placed on a community corrections order by the Moorabbin Magistrates' Court for possessing a dangerous article, shoplift, receiving stolen goods, committing and indictable offence whilst on bail and possessing methylamphetamine, in other words, ice.

29However your sister gave evidence on the plea of the fact that you had been, to her knowledge, been addicted to ice for some years and that this situation worsened once your mother was diagnosed with a serious illness.  She gave evidence that you basically disappeared whilst she and her sisters and your father cared for your mother.  In any event, as a result of this offending, you were placed in custody and were still in custody when your mother unfortunately died.  You had to attend her funeral in handcuffs, which undoubtedly had
a profound effect upon you. 

30You have spent most of your time in custody at Fulham Correctional Centre, where you appear to have done well.  I received the results of two urine analysis investigations, which have proved negative for drug use.  You have attended two Narcotics Anonymous meetings down there and I note that Narcotics Anonymous was only introduced in about the last month of your time there.  

31I also received a Fulham Correctional Centre induction passport, which outlined a number of courses that you were required to undertake, basic to you receiving privileges at the gaol, one of which you could only undertake if you were invited to do so.  You have also held the position of billet down at Fulham, including head gardener. 

32I am satisfied that you do have strong family support.  You come from an extremely, it seems, close and strong family.  Your father and one sister came to court to support you, the other was unable to.  You have somewhere to live when you finally leave gaol and you have an occupation that you can undertake. 

33I am satisfied that because of the situation relating to your mother, your emotional state, which I note had been quite fragile for some years, probably arising out of the severe bullying that you experienced at school, became drastically worse in the face of your mother's illness and hence so did your ice use. 

34I am satisfied that you have done well in gaol and that you have reasonable prospects for rehabilitation. 

35I received a written reference from your sister, Caitlyn Roberts, who also gave evidence on the plea.  Certainly it was the view of the psychologist that your risk of re-offending would depend on your ability to abstain from illicit drugs.  He reports a history of depression, but that your current presentation at interview did not support a diagnosis of a severe depressive illness.

36Now, that is actually important.  It means your condition in gaol has improved, probably because you are not using drugs and probably because you are in a structure.  So in fact, (unfortunately we do not have sufficient residential rehabilitation facilities in the community), gaol has actually been a positive experience for you and I am satisfied that you have used it to the best of your ability. 

37It was submitted to me that a combination community corrections order and gaol sentence would be appropriate in your case and this was a course that the prosecution conceded was open to me. 

38In all the circumstances, it is my view that this is an appropriate way to proceed.  You need to understand that this was extremely serious offending and you also need to understand, Mr Reynolds, and I think I said this to you on the last occasion, that if you ever present before a court again, you will have a prior conviction for attempted armed robbery, in the County Court.  That is considered extremely serious and it will also be noted that you have been given another opportunity.  What I am saying overall, is that if you continue with your ice use and the inevitable offending that goes with it, you can only expect gaol sentences from now on.  Is that clear? 

39In sentencing you, I take into account your plea of guilty, your relatively limited criminal history, the circumstances surrounding you at the time, the circumstances, in particular the circumstances surrounding your mother's illness.  I therefore sentence you as follows:  Could you stand up please, sir. 

40On each of the charges of theft and armed robbery, (and in my view they arise out of the same set of circumstances), I am sentencing you to a term of imprisonment of one year, after which you will be released on a community corrections order for 18 months.  All right?  Before I can place you on
a community corrections order, I need to explain to you the core conditions relating to the order and any special conditions.

41They are:  First you must report to the Community Corrections within two days of being released from prison. 

42Whilst on the order, you must not commit an indictable offence, punishable by imprisonment.  Now what that means is, it does not mean if you commit an offence and you do not get gaol, that does not breach this.  If you commit any offence for which you theoretically could be gaoled, like knocking off a box of matches from Woolworths, that will breach this order.  This you will be brought back in front of me and I will re-sentence you.  Do you understand? 

43Whilst on this order, you may not leave Victoria without the permission of the Community Corrections office. 

44You must report to and receive visits from the Community Corrections office. 

45You must not attend upon the Community Corrections office whilst under the influence of drugs or alcohol.    

46You must obey all lawful directions of the Community Corrections office.

47You must inform the Community Corrections office of any change of address or employment within 48 hours of the making of that change. 

48I am going to order that you undertake 200 hours of unpaid community work.  You too are to attend for assessment and treatment for drug use and you are to attend for assessment and treatment for mental health difficulties.  I am not going to order supervision, but I am going to order judicial monitoring, which will be in six months after your release. 

49I declare that - how many - what is the pre-sentence detention please? 

50MS KARAMICOV:  Two - 224 including yesterday's date. 

51HER HONOUR:  Yesterday but not today?

52MS KARAMICOV:  Yes.  Sorry, sorry, sorry.  Sorry, Your Honour.

53HER HONOUR:  That is all right. 

54MS KARAMICOV:  Three forty-five to yesterday, plus last night. 

55HER HONOUR:  Thank you. 

56MS KARAMICOV:  Three forty-six. 

57HER HONOUR:  I declare that 346 days of this sentence have already been served by way of pre-sentence detention.  All right? 

58In relation to the summary offences, I am going to charge you - you are probably going to be working pretty soon after you get out, that would be right?  Yes.  All right, I am going to charge you - fine you $150 on each charge.  I will give you six months to pay.  All right?  Have a seat. 

59I declare, pursuant to s.6AAA, that had you not pleaded guilty, I would have sentenced you to a term of imprisonment of 20 months and order that you serve 15 months before becoming eligible for parole.  All right. 

60Now, turning to you, Ms Welsh.  You are now 24 years of age.  You had a very difficult history, in that your parents separated when you were two.  Your mother was an alcoholic and violent and abusive.  You had close contact with your father, who was an important support for you, but he was HIV positive, suffered from AIDS and from about the very early age of seven, you took up a significant carer role in his life.  You moved in between your parents on a very regular basis.  Your mother would regularly throw you out of home and then you would move in with your father. 

61You have two brothers, one of whom is older than you and is currently serving a long term of imprisonment for culpable driving.  This occurred in 2013.  Your father also died in that year. 

62It would seem as a result of the extreme instability within your family, that friends became extremely important to you and certainly it appears that Mr Reynolds was one of those. You had had a close relationship with Mr Reynolds since your primary school years and you became particularly close when he was going through the difficulties that he faced with the illness of his mother and the subsequent use of methamphetamines.

63You left school quite young. Your education was disrupted as you moved between the two secondary colleges that were close to either your mother or your father's home, depending where you were staying and you left partway through Year 10.

64You then worked in a restaurant for a year.  You gave your occupation as student, and it appears that prior to 2016, you started a Certificate III in aged care through Open Colleges online, which you stopped following the birth of your son in that year. 

65Unsurprisingly, you began using drugs at a fairly early age, beginning with marijuana daily from the age of 11 or 12 and were using ice from 2010.  Obviously this involved negative peers and your boyfriend at the time was a user.  You have not used drugs since the birth of your daughter in 2012.  Your first partner was abusive and violent towards you and ultimately he was sentenced to four years' imprisonment the day before your daughter, Isabella, was born and you have had no contact with him since.  You have been raising Isabella on your own ever since she was born. 

66You also confronted some very difficult times once your partner was gaoled.  You were no longer able to afford the house you and he had been living in and there were periods of homelessness and living in a car with a newborn child or with friends for about a 12 month period.  Then you were able to obtain Department of Housing accommodation in Oakleigh, which was good for you, in most respects, except that it was an area where you continually encountered your former partner's old associates and eight months ago, you were able to obtain alternative housing commission housing in Hampton East, where you now reside. 

67You had a second relationship with a supportive man who wrote a reference on your behalf.  It appears you are no longer together, but you gave birth to your son, Jonathon, in 2016, who is now almost 12 months. 

68You have, perhaps a more problematic prior criminal history than does
Mr Reynolds, although large parts of it arise in the Children's Court in 2007 and 2008. In 2014, you appeared in the Ringwood Magistrates' Court on charges of unlicensed driving and other driving offences, assault in company, possessing prescription drugs and possessing methylamphetamine. 

69You were placed on a good behaviour bond and fined.  But also you were disqualified from obtaining a licence for two years.  On the occasion on which you were picked up driving, you were in fact disqualified, which underlies the drive whilst disqualified charge. 

70Finally, in 2015, you appeared on a charge of unlawful assault, which related to a neighbour with whom your mother was having a dispute and you were fined $500.

71There has been no further offending, as I understand it, since the offending before this court.  You have stable accommodation, you have the care of two children, drugs are not a problem with you and it appears very much to have been a case of an overweening sense of loyalty to an old friend, in the midst of a life where friends were particularly important to you because of the chaos of your own family, that underlay this offending. 

72In my view, a community corrections order, which was submitted as an appropriate response, is an appropriate response to your offending and
I propose to place you on such an order. 

73I think what I will do and if I can do this, I will also place Ms Welsh, Ms Poulter, on the order in relation to the two summary charges.

74MS POULTER:  Yes. 

75HER HONOUR:  She is not capable of meeting a fine, I would not have thought.  A good behaviour bond's not appropriate in the circumstances.  So I will do two community corrections orders.  One will be in relation to the matters on the indictment, the other two will be on the summary matters, which I can do.

76MS POULTER:  Yes.

77MS KARAMICOV:  Yes, Your Honour, and they can run ‑ ‑ ‑

78HER HONOUR:  But I do not think it is appropriate for me to put all four ‑ ‑ ‑

79MS POULTER:  No.

80MS KARAMICOV:  Yes. 

81HER HONOUR:  ‑ ‑ ‑ charges on the one.  Can you stand up please, Ms Welsh.

82I am going to place you on a community corrections order for a period of
14 months in relation to Charges 1 and 2 on the indictment.  They arouse out of the same incident and therefore, in my view, can be aggregately dealt with. 

83In relation to the summary offences, I am going to place you on a community corrections order, but it will be for a lesser period. 

84Before I can place you on either order, I must gain your consent and therefore I need to explain to you the terms of the order. 

85You must report to the office of Corrections within two working days of the making of this order, that is, by Tuesday of next week. 

86Whilst on the order, you must not commit another offence punishable by imprisonment.  You heard what I said to Mr Reynolds.

87OFFENDER WELSH:  Yeah.

88HER HONOUR:  The same applies to you. 

89You must report to and receive visits from the Community Corrections office.

90You must inform the Community Corrections office of any change of address or employment within 48 hours of the making of that change.

91You must not attend upon the Community Corrections office under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

92You must report to and receive visits from the Community Corrections office.

93You may not leave Victoria without the permission of the Community Corrections office.

94You must obey all lawful directions of the Community Corrections office.

95I am going to order that you undertake 70 hours of unpaid community work.  All right?  Do you reckon you can manage that? 

96OFFENDER WELSH:  Yep. 

97HER HONOUR:  I am not giving you that many.  You do not seem to me to ‑ ‑ ‑

98OFFENDER WELSH:  Will it be in - between school hours, sorry?

99HER HONOUR:  Pardon?

100OFFENDER WELSH:  Would it be able to be in between school hours?

101HER HONOUR:  I am sure it probably would be. 

102OFFENDER WELSH:  Okay.

103HER HONOUR:  The Corrections office is very used to having to find particular days that suit particular people and you have got the care of young children. 

104OFFENDER WELSH:  Okay, thank you.

105HER HONOUR:  The order, I said, will last for 14 months, so you have got plenty of time to do - to carry out those work hours, all right? 

106OFFENDER WELSH:  Okay, thank you.

107HER HONOUR:  I am not going to order any other special conditions.  I do not think Ms Welsh really requires mental health assessment, treatment, drug treatment, anything like that.

108MS KARAMICOV:  As Your Honour pleases. 

109HER HONOUR:  Does that make sense to you, Madam Prosecutor?

110MS KARAMICOV:  Yes.  Yes, it does, thank you, Your Honour.

111HER HONOUR:  I just do not see any point.  All right. 

112In relation to the second community corrections order - I do have to - I have to impose something by way of a special condition.  Is 15 hours too little?  Is that the least I can - I will just give the least, because I will have to add to it. 

113MS KARAMICOV:  Yes, I think that's right, yes.

114HER HONOUR:  All right, look, I will make it 15 hours, so you will have a total of 84.  So you will have to do that 15 hours in the first six months.

115OFFENDER WELSH:  Yeah.

116HER HONOUR:  But the whole lot - the rest of it has to be done within
14 months.  Does that make sense to you?

117OFFENDER WELSH:  Yeah.

118HER HONOUR:  Pursuant to s.6AAA, I declare that had you not pleaded guilty, I would sentenced you to a term of imprisonment for six months. 

119Thank you, have a seat. 

120I should make reference to the victim impact statement.  Notwithstanding that
I have not dealt that either of you, in my view, terribly severely, you need to be aware - I think we had some discussion about this, of the effect.  The victim impact statement was read out, wasn't it? 

121MS POULTER:  Yes.

122HER HONOUR:  I read it out. 

123MS KARAMICOV:  Your Honour read it out.

124HER HONOUR:  Yes, I read it out.  It has had a very nasty effect upon the victim in this matter.  He still is affected emotionally.  He is still worried, wary, his sense of safety has been diminished.  This has been ongoing.  He has lost a lot of trust.  He did nothing to deserve this treatment and indeed, very often in cases like this, a victim may be found to, himself, be involved in some shady activity.  He was not at all, he was simply selling his phones and he was subjected, particularly by you, Mr Reynolds, to one of the most terrifying experiences of his life.  We went through that on the plea yesterday, but you need to remember this.  All right?

125All right, we will just get the paperwork ready.

126Now, is there anything else that I need to attend to? 

127MS KARAMICOV:  Can I just confirm a few things in relation to the sentence that Your Honour has just pronounced? 

128HER HONOUR:  Yes.

129MS KARAMICOV:  The CCO for Ms Welsh.

130HER HONOUR:  Yes.

131MS KARAMICOV:  In relation to Charges 6 and 9.

132HER HONOUR:  Yes.

133MS KARAMICOV:  Is that for a period of six months?

134HER HONOUR:  Yes. 

135MS KARAMICOV:  All right. 

136HER HONOUR:  Yes, it is. 

137MS KARAMICOV:  And ‑ ‑ ‑

138HER HONOUR:  And she gets 15 hours of unpaid community work.

139MS KARAMICOV:  Fifteen hours for the six month ‑ ‑ ‑

140HER HONOUR:  Yes.  For the six - in the six months. 

141MS KARAMICOV:  Yes.

142HER HONOUR:  And look, can I just make it with the record.  It means she is going to do a totality of 85 hours.

143MS KARAMICOV:  Yes.

144HER HONOUR:  But I did not want - the need to do two separate community corrections orders, in my view, could - if I did not do that, it would result in
a period of time.

145MS KARAMICOV:  Yes. 

146HER HONOUR:  That would just take too - be too much. 

147MS KARAMICOV:  Yes. 

148HER HONOUR:  In the circumstances with the children. 

149MS KARAMICOV:  And in relation to Mr Reynolds.

150HER HONOUR:  Yes.

151MS KARAMICOV:  In relation to Charges 1 and 2.

152HER HONOUR:  Yes.

153MS KARAMICOV:  Can I just confirm that that one year sentence is an aggregate sentence?

154HER HONOUR:  It is an aggregate sentence ‑ ‑ ‑

155MS KARAMICOV:  Thank you.

156HER HONOUR:  ‑ ‑ ‑ in relation to both.

157MS KARAMICOV:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

158HER HONOUR:  Yes.  And I fined him in relation to the summary charges. 

159MS KARAMICOV:  Yes.  And that was $150.

160HER HONOUR:  On each.

161MS KARAMICOV:  On each charge. 

162HER HONOUR:  Yes.  I am not going to make any order as to his licence.

163MS KARAMICOV:­  No.

164HER HONOUR:  Because if he is a brickie, he is going to need his licence. 

165MS KARAMICOV:  Yes.

166HER HONOUR:  And we would much rather have him working than not. 

167MS KARAMICOV:  Yes. 

168HER HONOUR:  All right?

169MS KARAMICOV:  And just one other - sorry, just one other ‑ ‑ ‑

170HER HONOUR:  That is quite all right. 

171MS KARAMICOV:  In relation to the entries of the plea of guilty.

172HER HONOUR:  Yes,

173MS KARAMICOV:  Your Honour - I assume Your Honour was referring to the opening.

174HER HONOUR:  I was.

175MS KARAMICOV:  Where what I had written in the opening was that the plea wasn't entered at an early stage.

176HER HONOUR:  Yes.

177MS KARAMICOV:  But orally I said yesterday, in my submission that Ms Welsh was in a different position.

178HER HONOUR:  You did too.  Yes, I make the point and as always, I reserve the right to edit the appalling grammar that inevitably accompanies my extempore sentences.  But I will add, I note, that in terms of the entry of a plea of guilty, it is not - it is submitted and I accept by the prosecution that
Mr Reynold's plea was not an early plea, but in Ms Welsh's case, the offer to plead to the charges which ultimately she faced in court, was made at an early stage and therefore it was considered to be an early plea.

179I am sorry that that was so messy.  Yes.

180OFFENDER WELSH:  Am I able to get a licence?

181HER HONOUR:  I am not touching your licence. 

182OFFENDER WELSH:  'Cause I - I never had a licence, but am I allowed to go for my learner's now?

183HER HONOUR:  Yes, I think you are. 

184OFFENDER WELSH:  Yes.

185HER HONOUR:  I am not going to make any order as to your licence.

186OFFENDER WELSH:  Yeah, thank you.

187HER HONOUR:  I think it would be better if you got one. 

188OFFENDER WELSH:  Thank you.

189HER HONOUR:  And did not drive without one, that would be a really good thing for you to do, Ms Welsh, not drive without a licence.

190OFFENDER WELSH:  Thank you. 

191HER HONOUR:  Yes.  Yes, the first judicial monitoring will be 15 December for you at 9.30.  You do not have any, Ms Welsh.  But I will see you, Mr Reynolds.  And you better have done a good job.  I expect to see a fit, healthy young man working his - very hard as a bricklayer with a licence.  All right. 

192MS POULTER:  Your Honour, if I could just raise on issue in terms of the sentencing remarks.  Your Honour put in regard to assist offender that it was on the basis of taking him - that Ms Welsh took Mr Reynolds to the car park and then drove off.  I think the basis it's put is just basically driving off.  And I just raise that for the record, Your Honour.

193HER HONOUR:  No, because - so the driving off encompassed assistance in each - on each ‑ ‑ ‑

194MS POULTER:  Yes, on each charge.

195HER HONOUR:  That makes it a bit difficult, because really it is the one action.

196MS POULTER:  Yes.  Well, there's the driving off - and letting him back in the car and driving off is the way it was ‑ ‑ ‑

197HER HONOUR:  Well that is assists in the armed robbery, but I think - look,
I understand what you are saying, but I think there is a difficulty, because if you have got the driving off, that means she has assisted in both, but that is only one assisting.  Do you see what I mean?

198MS POULTER:  But there's one action that effectively assists in the commission of both offences. 

199HER HONOUR:  Yes, well that should be one charge.  Look, does it matter?

200MS POULTER:  Well that's a different matter.  No, Your Honour, but I just ‑ ‑ ‑

201HER HONOUR:  I do not know that this is going to come under curial scrutiny, so ‑ ‑ ‑

202MS POULTER:  No, I don't think so. 

203HER HONOUR:  I appreciate - it is an interesting question.  You are probably right.  I will have a look at it. 

204MS POULTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

205HER HONOUR:  All right.  Is there anything else?

206MS KARAMICOV:  Just the ancillary orders.

207HER HONOUR:  Yes.  And I need to sign these.  I am grateful to both counsel for their attendance today.  All counsel actually, it is very useful, given the messiness of the way this has been done.  Thank you.  That is all signed.  So the ancillary orders.  I am sorry.  Excuse me. 

208MS KARAMICOV:  No, no problems at all, Your Honour.  There are a number of ancillary orders.

209HER HONOUR:  Yes.

210MS KARAMICOV:  So one of - DNA forensic sample orders for both
Mr Reynolds and Ms Welsh.

211HER HONOUR:  Yes. 

212MS KARAMICOV:  There is a non-custodial for Ms Welsh and a custodial for Mr Reynolds. 

213HER HONOUR:  Yes.

214MS KARAMICOV:  Disposal order for both Mr Reynolds and Ms Welsh.

215HER HONOUR:  Yes.

216MS KARAMICOV:  They are on the same order.

217HER HONOUR:  Yes

218MS KARAMICOV:  In relation to items that were found in the car.

219HER HONOUR:  Yes.

220MS KARAMICOV:  And that were found at their premises.

221HER HONOUR:  Sure.  Yes, yes, yes, no worries. 

222MS KARAMICOV:  There is a forfeiture order that relates to Mr Reynolds.

223HER HONOUR:  Yes.

224MS KARAMICOV:  In relation to the car. 

225HER HONOUR:  Whose car was it? 

226MS KARAMICOV:  Whose car was it?  Can we leave that for the moment?

227HER HONOUR:  Yes, I think it might not be a bad idea.  Yes. 

228MS KARAMICOV:  And there was an application that I didn't make reference to yesterday, which was for a compensation order.

229HER HONOUR:  Yes.

230MS KARAMICOV:  Notice has been served.

231HER HONOUR:  Six hundred and fifty dollars for Mr ‑ ‑ ‑

232MS KARAMICOV:  Yes.

233HER HONOUR:  Yes, I will make that.  I think that is fair enough. 

234MS KARAMICOV:  And that ‑ ‑ ‑

235MS TODD:  I don't think I can reasonably oppose that, Your Honour.

236HER HONOUR:  No, I would like to see you have a go, Ms Todd, I am sure you could come up with something.

237MS TODD:  I think I could come up with something.  It might not be very becoming. 

238HER HONOUR:  Yes, I know.  No, no, that is fair enough.  I will make the order in respect of - yes.  So, Mr Reynolds, compensation order.  You have got to pay him $650.

239OFFENDER REYNOLDS:  Yeah.

240HER HONOUR:  All right, fair enough? 

241OFFENDER REYNOLDS:  Yeah. 

242HER HONOUR:  Yes, absolutely.  All right.  Ms Welsh, you can come out of the dock if you wish.  Or if it is working for you there, you can stay, it is up to you.  All right, now, there is a - it is in relation to each.  What do you say, Ms Poulter, about Ms Welsh being placed on a section ‑ ‑ ‑

243MS POULTER:  In regard to the DNA sample, Your Honour, we're not consenting to the order being made.

244HER HONOUR:  Pardon? 

245MS POULTER:  Not consenting to the order being made.

246HER HONOUR:  That is right.  That is what you - yes. 

247MS POULTER:  Yes.  And, Your Honour, essentially I'd say, look the DNA wasn't relevant, in terms of the detection for this offence.  She has two prior matters in the adult court.  My submission to Your Honour is, she has really good prospects of rehabilitation.

248HER HONOUR:  Yes.

249MS POULTER:  And the material that I've put before Your Honour supports that.

250HER HONOUR:  Have you got anything else that you wanted to say about this, Ms Karamicov?

251MS KARAMICOV:  It is essentially made on the basis of the continuing type of - as Your Honour indicated yesterday, the continuing type of offending that this type - that this offence before Your Honour has with matters in Ms Welsh's prior history.

252HER HONOUR:  Yes.  No, look, I am not going to order it in her case.  I will order it in Mr Reynold's case.

253MS KARAMICOV:  As Your Honour pleases. 

254HER HONOUR:  All right.  Mr Reynolds, can you stand up please. 

255I am ordering the police take a sample.  It will be a swab from your mouth for the purposes of DNA.  They will come to the court and they will do that.  I need to say it - to the gaol, I mean.  I need to tell you that if you resist in any way, police are entitled to use reasonable force in order to obtain that swab. 

256OFFENDER REYNOLDS:  Yes.

257HER HONOUR:  All right?  Thank you very much.  Have a seat, that is fine, thank you.

258I thank counsel very much for their assistance in this matter.  As always, an enormous pleasure to have an all-female Bar table.  Well done.  Yes.  Is that the lot?  I have done - fixed everything?  Thank you very much.  All right.  So sine die.  Thank you.      

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