Director of Public Prosecutions v Parsons

[2018] VCC 1291

IN THE COUNTY COURT OF VICTORIA Revised
Not Restricted
Suitable for Publication

AT MELBOURNE
CRIMINAL JURISDICTION

CR-18-00715
Indictment No: H12121746.1

DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS

v

TIMOTHY PARSONS

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JUDGE:	HIS HONOUR JUDGE TINNEY
WHERE HELD:	Melbourne
DATE OF HEARING:	8 August 2018
DATE OF SENTENCE:	15 August 2018
CASE MAY BE CITED AS:	DPP v Parsons
MEDIUM NEUTRAL CITATION:	[2018] VCC 1291

REASONS FOR SENTENCE
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Subject:
Catchwords:
Legislation Cited:
Cases Cited:
Sentence:

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APPEARANCES:	Counsel	Solicitors
For the Director of Public Prosecutions	Mr K. Doyle	Office of Public Prosecutions
For the Accused	Mr A. S. Dickenson	James Dowsley & Associates

HIS HONOUR: 

1As you know, this case was listed for trial to commence last week.  There were four charges on that trial indictment, including aggravated burglary, common assault, sexual assault and making a threat to inflict serious injury. 

2There was a live issue as to whether you were fit to actually plead; that is, fit to undergo the trial, and when I came onto the Bench I think on 6 August that was still a live issue.  You were assessed that day by Dr Carroll and Dr Turnbull, who were present at court.  Each of those had previously prepared reports.  But they saw you on the day of what would have been Day 1 of the trial and then I was told that there really was no question of your fitness to plead.  You were fit to stand trial and that much was plain.

3Likewise, there was no issue being taken with the existence of any sort of mental impairment defence.  That was really not being run.  What I then did was I adjourned this case to the following day, this was last week, to Tuesday 7 August.  I had already at that stage raised some concerns about the utility of the matter actually proceeding and I had addressed those remarks to the Crown, represented as they were by Mr Doyle.  Mr Doyle and others considered the matters that I raised but they decided that the matter had to proceed. 

4That being so, it seemed to me at least that there was ample scope for discussions between the parties given that there were four charges on the indictment and in any event, the next day I was told that the matter had in fact settled.  You were pleading guilty to the single charge of sexual assault and you were arraigned, you pleaded guilty to that charge and I adjourned the case to Wednesday of last week.

5On that day, you were a bit upset and maybe you will not remember much of it but a plea was conducted by Mr Dickenson.  The prosecutor opened this case to me, he told me the factual setting.  In fact, the prosecutor joined with your counsel in submitting that a community corrections order would be an appropriate disposition in this sort of case given some of the particular factors involved and so what I then did is I called for you to be assessed.  You were assessed yesterday and we have now got that report.

6Last week, the prosecutor read the agreed summary in this case and that was marked as an exhibit, Exhibit A.  You admitted the existence of your prior criminal record which included a couple of instances of indecent assault, for which you were placed on a community corrections order which ultimately had been cancelled.

7OFFENDER:  I'd like to say a bit about that please.

8HIS HONOUR:  No, do not worry about that.  I do not see the need to repeat the whole summary of the offence here.  It has been read by the prosecutor.  It is clear enough it was a pretty unusual setting here for this offence to have taken place in that you were an inpatient in a psychiatric ward and so too was the young victim and in fact, as I understand the material, you had in fact been admitted that very day. It is plain enough from the progress notes and the discharge summary and the commentary on those aspects by Dr Carroll and by Dr Turnbull, that you were hardly acting with an optimal capacity or condition on the day of this offence.

9You had significant issues impacting upon your conduct, on your level of impulsivity.  It is plain enough, maybe it was not plain to you but plain enough to others that you, to some extent, had some delusional sort of condition on the day.  Though, as I say, you were not mentally impaired in the sense of that amounting to a defence.  But it would be obvious to anyone that there has to be a reduction in your culpability for this offence owing to the condition that you were labouring under on the day.

10I have not said much about the actual offence itself.  It is a sexual assault.  The victim was a young girl, she was 18 and you have had enough problems in your time obviously in terms of mental health issues and things arising out of the accident occurring back in about 1999 where you also, it would seem, were in a coma and suffered some sort of acquired brain injury.  So life has not been that kind to you.  It has not been too kind to that young girl either, all right.

11OFFENDER:  Yeah, I know.

12HIS HONOUR:  She was an 18 year old girl.  She was an inpatient in this same facility and she should have been safe.  She should have been safe in her room and she should have been left alone and what she received instead was some unwanted attention from you that is described in that summary that has had an impact upon her as the impact statement marked as Exhibit C makes plain enough.

13So I have taken into account that impact, the impact of your behaving in the way that you behaved in committing this crime.  You really cannot and you must not kiss or hug people unless you are directly invited to do so and you have done it now a couple of times and you have got to be very careful about that in the future because it brings trouble for you and it brings hurt and harm to other people.

14OFFENDER:  I understand.

15HIS HONOUR:  In any event ‑ ‑ ‑

16OFFENDER:  I apologised to her.

17HIS HONOUR:  And you pleaded guilty and you settled this case.  You pleaded guilty.  I think it has been a very pragmatic sort of settlement.  By pleading guilty, you have spared the community the effort and the cost of a trial and you have spared the victim from actually coming to court and it would not have been an easy thing for her to come to court.  It is not easy for you, it is not easy for her and because you have pleaded guilty, she does not need to come to court and that is a most important thing and that is one of the things that Mr Dickenson raised on your behalf last week and again today. 

18The fact that you have pleaded guilty really in a nutshell, what Mr Dickenson is arguing is that yes, you have pleaded guilty, that you have some level of remorse.  That is you are sorry that you have done what you have done, that you had significant disadvantages in your personal background when you were growing up and also the impact of the diagnosed and operative mental illness at the time of the offending and for that matter, at the date of sentencing and that he argues that full weight has to be given to the conditions that you labour under.

19I have in the materials, I do not need to go into these things chapter and verse either, but you will remember that you have been seen by Dr Carroll, you have been seen, I think, a couple of times by Dr Turnbull, there is also a discharge summary from the hospital and some nurses' notes.  I have all of that material that fills in some of the essential background, background at the time of the event but also historical background as to what has happened in your life and the past.  So I have regard to all of that material.

20I take into account obviously the fact that you have pleaded guilty, as I say, you have accepted responsibility and that is important and you get a real benefit for doing that.

21OFFENDER:  Yeah.

22HIS HONOUR:  And you get a benefit because, as I say, it saves the cost and the experience and the effort of a trial and it saves that witness, a very vulnerable witness from actually coming to court and reliving this event.  It would have been hard for her, it would have been hard for you, but you have saved all of that so I take that into account as well.

23I am required to have regard to the stage of the plea.  It is a late plea in the sense that here we were assembled last week ready to run a trial.  So to that extent, it is obviously a late plea but I do not actually treat it as such in the circumstances of this case because it seems to me that, and I am not being critical of anyone, but understandably, there was significant focus on your fitness to plead and some other issues connected to that and as a result, it came up to this court.  There was probably no way of avoiding it coming up to court given the live issues as to your fitness and the limits upon a magistrate's ability to handle that sort of matter in the Magistrates' Court.  So it came up to this court and those issues really only left us on Day 1 of the trial when you were assessed again  by Turnbull and by Carroll and they gave you the thumbs up in terms of being fit.

24So really, it was only from about that point that there could be sensible discussions and there were and it settled on that day.  So I certainly do not hold against you the fact that it is a late plea.  It is late chronologically but I do not treat it as a late plea in the circumstances. It is still worth a lot.

25As to remorse, well you have said in my presence here today that you are sorry for what you have done and I think you are and so I am prepared to find that there is an aspect of remorse involved in this.  It is implied in your plea but I think also you know that you have done the wrong thing and you have got to be more careful in the future.

26I have not been told a lot about your actual family background.  There is no need for me to be told a lot about that because there is a fair bit of detail about that contained in the two reports that have been filed on this matter from Dr Carroll in particular and from Turnbull.  Having read those reports, it is plain that you early childhood was a most disadvantaged one.  I do not need to go into the reasons why that was so and the way it impacted upon you but it was a disadvantaged early childhood that you have had that has not been improved then of course by the development of serious mental health issues over the course of your life and has been further complicated by, it would appear, an acquired brain injury suffered in a motor car accident in 1999 when you were a pedestrian.

27OFFENDER:  (Indistinct words) car.

28HIS HONOUR:  Or bus or whatever it was and it has been further complicated as I think you know because you mentioned it a short a time ago the issues that you were having with ice back at the time of these events.  Your mental health issues are only worsened if you take illegal drugs and they are worsened further if you do not take the drugs that you should actually be taking.

29OFFENDER:  I understand that, Your Honour.

30HIS HONOUR:  That has been an issue for you in the past but it is not at the moment, which is a good thing.

31OFFENDER:  Yeah, I'm clean at the moment.  I have been for ‑ ‑ ‑

32HIS HONOUR:  So your mental health, it is obvious that the mental health condition spoken of in those reports has a significant role in my task and that is because it obviously enough had a significant role in the actual offending on the day but it also has a role as of today's date in terms of the impact of any sentence passed upon you. 

33I do not need to go into the learning in this area.  There have been lots of cases that have been dealt with in our highest court in this state and just one of them is a line of authority referred to as the Verdins line of authority.  It has full weight I think in this case.  The various factors, all of them, as spelt in that case are enlivened in this case.  I mean, the reports speak to me of the impact upon you at the time of this offence of your condition, of the mental health condition.  They speak also of numerous admissions both before and since actually and the long term nature of your various conditions that you labour under.  So it obviously had an impact upon your decision making on the day of the offence, that much is plain.  You were after all admitted, as I understand it, involuntarily on that very day.  So you were hardly functioning at a high level or making the best of decisions. 

34So plainly there is a reduction in your culpability, there is a reduction in the weight to be given to general and specific deterrence and plainly sending a person such as you to prison, there would be a much greater burden upon you being a prisoner than upon people without your conditions and also I think a sizeable risk of deterioration in your state if you were sent to prison which I hasten to add you are not going to be today, all right. 

35OFFENDER:  Thank you (indistinct).

36HIS HONOUR:  So I take into account all of those matters that are spelt out in that decision of Verdins and I think they are given significant weight in this case. 

37Your present living situation, maybe it is not particularly ideal, I mean I have some knowledge of the Ambassador Motel Apartments.

38OFFENDER:  (Indistinct words).

39HIS HONOUR:  They are perhaps not the best place for someone like you and but it is a roof over your head and that is important, it is better than ‑ ‑ ‑

40OFFENDER:  Better than walking around in the cold.

41HIS HONOUR:  Better that than nothing, and you are on the disability support pension, you have some level of independence in the community, though you benefit from getting support and there is support here again today offered by a member of the church that you are part of the congregation, and that is a Mr Sandilands who has been good enough to come again here today to provide support.  So you have that level of support. 

42You also have a long-term connection to various mental health services.  Now, of course they change when your place of residence change.  I think previously you have been down to Korumburra, now you are back in the Frankston region and so it has been moved and there has only been a case worker appointed I think very recently, so it is in its infancy really.  But you are linked in to an appropriate mental health service.  It would seem that you are either on a therapeutic treatment order or community treatment order, and you are receiving the depot injections and it would seem that you are compliant with those, the taking of the drugs you should take and not taking drugs that you should not.  So these are positives, so you are in a decent frame of mind at the moment.

43OFFENDER:  I used to debate about it but I don't debate it anymore.

44HIS HONOUR:  Yes, well there's nothing to debate.  If someone with your condition doesn't take the prescribed medication it's going to be a disaster and you're going to wind up back in an institution. 

45OFFENDER:  Yeah, I realise that now. 

46HIS HONOUR:  And if you take illegal drugs it likewise is going to impact upon the effectiveness of the other drugs and it leads to the same sort of issues.

47OFFENDER:  It used to be that they're all the same and that drugs were drugs, but now I realise they're not.

48HIS HONOUR:  Yes, well that's good that you've reached that position.  So you are living a life in the community.  You have had a level of disadvantage, as I have said, which I have taken into account as far as I am able to. 

49I have also got to have regard though to the fact that you have been to the court before and for this similar sort of matter.  I mean you went to the Moorabbin Magistrates' Court particularly when you were dealt with for indecent assault, two indecent assaults.  These are the IGA incidents.  And you got a community corrections order for that and the summary of that matter is before me and it is not that dissimilar in the sense that it is inappropriate contact with a woman in the community who did not want the contact.  And that is what you have to be very careful about. 

50So in any event, I have to have regard to that
and ‑ ‑ ‑

51OFFENDER:  (Indistinct words.) 

52HIS HONOUR:  Yes, well, what you need to do is you kiss and hug people who want to be kissed and hugged, and if they do not then you leave them alone.  If there is any doubt about it, you just leave them alone. 

53Now, here ‑ ‑ ‑

54OFFENDER:  Don't chase girls anymore.

55HIS HONOUR:  That is what I am saying.  If they are chasing you, that is fine, all right, but not the other way.  Not the other way.  Because it is the other way that has brought you back to court, okay?  So you just have to bear that constantly in mind. 

56I have to also bear in mind though that I have to have regard to the nature of this particular offence and sexual assault can cover a large range of activities.  And this one, as unpleasant an event as it was for this young girl - yes, she was in an institution, she should be safe there, and she was not - but I can only deal with you for the act that you have committed and so in the scheme of what this sort of offence covers it is certainly a long way from the worst example of this sort of offence, a long way.  It is unpleasant, no question about that.  It has had an impact upon her, no question about that.  It has had an impact upon you, because it has brought you before a court, and that is where you do not want to be, because you find it stressful to be in this sort of place.

57In any event, I take into account the nature of the actual offence that I am required to sentence you in relation to.  I take into account the impact and I also take into account the maximum penalty involved here.

58What I have to do is I have to do punish you, and I have to do that justly.  I have to try to discourage you or deter you from doing this again; I think you are getting the message.  I also have to send a message to other people that this sort of conduct is not allowed, but I think I can reduce each of those purposes in this case for the reasons I have announced.

59I have to denounce your conduct, and I do.  It was wrong to do what you did, and you must not do it again, all right?  And I also have to have regard at least to the concept of protecting the community from you.  I think the best protection is for you to be on a supervised arrangement where you understand that you have to stay out of trouble and be supervised by Corrections.  And I also have to have regard to your rehabilitation, which again I think is the reason why a community corrections order is the way to go in this case.

60But what it amounts to is this.  I have to significantly moderate many of the principles of sentencing that would ordinarily be very much at the forefront in this sort of case.  That is owing to the considerations thrown up by your mental health issues and the impact of sending someone such as you to prison.  Prison is a sentence of last resort.  The court only locks a person up if there is no other choice, all right?  And that is the law.  And there is another choice here, as far as I am concerned.  If there was not, I would send you to prison. 

61But there is another choice here, in my view, it is one that is reasonable in all the circumstances and I think can adequately achieve the various purposes of sentencing in a case such as this.  And it is consistent with the submission made by Mr Dickenson on your behalf and it is accepted to be the appropriate disposition by the Office of Public Prosecutions, who are represented by Mr Doyle.

62The problem is, of course, that you have been seen by Corrections the other day, yesterday, and they are querying your suitability for such an order.  You got a bit upset yesterday in the course of the assessment.  But they have also had you in the past and the previous order that you were placed on was taken back to court, and was taken back to court by the looks of it because you were having difficulty actually complying with that order that was imposed down at Moorabbin. 

63So I have that assessment before me, which is now Exhibit D, saying that you are not suitable for this sort of order.  That does not stop me from placing you on one, and no doubt there were difficulties on the last order that led it to go back to court and to be cancelled.  I hope that does not occur here.  But I think it is open to me in this case to place you on a community corrections order, and that is what I am going to do.

64It is not going to be a lengthy order.  It is not actually going to be a particularly difficult order, all right?  I have the power to make an order that someone do unpaid work, and that is very often done to punish someone.  I am not going to do that, I am not focusing on unpaid work or anything like that.  What I want you to know is that you are under supervision for the period of this order, and you must stay out of trouble.  You must comply with your mental health treatment and you must not offend, all right?  I am going to explain that in a bit more detail, but that is what it amounts to.

65OFFENDER:  Excuse me, Your Honour ‑ ‑ ‑

66HIS HONOUR:  Yes.

67OFFENDER:  ‑ ‑ ‑ I know it's not going to make the situation any better for the girl that (indistinct words), but could I maybe buy her some chocolates and flowers or something to say I'm sorry?

68HIS HONOUR:  Look, no, I don't think - no, no.  Look ‑ ‑ ‑

69OFFENDER:  Or could I write a letter at least to say I'm sorry?  (Indistinct words) letter.

70HIS HONOUR:  No, I don't think it's a great idea and ‑ ‑ ‑

71OFFENDER:  She couldn't accept a letter just to say I'm sorry?  To explain (indistinct words) ‑ ‑ ‑

72HIS HONOUR:  She will know that you are sorry because she will know that you have spared her the experience of coming to court, okay?

73OFFENDER:  All right.

74HIS HONOUR:  She will know that.  And she will know that you have pleaded guilty, and so no ‑ ‑ ‑

75OFFENDER:  (Indistinct words.)

76HIS HONOUR:  No, that is all right, but it would not be a great idea to communicate with her at all, okay?  And you really must not.

77OFFENDER:  (Indistinct words.)

78HIS HONOUR:  That's all right, anyway, look, what I am going to do is this and I will give you bit of a time.  You will be able to chat about all of this with Mr Dickenson.  I'll ask you at the end of all this whether you consent to this community corrections order.  I can only put you on one of these orders if you say that I can, all right?

79OFFENDER:  Okay.

80HIS HONOUR:  So just listen very carefully.

81So what I am going to do is I am going to convict you on the charge of sexual assault where you have pleaded guilty.  Of course I am going to convict you, you have a prior appearance for the same style of offence.  And I am going to put you on one of these orders, and it is going to be for a reasonably brief period of time.  it is a 12-month order, okay?

82OFFENDER:  Yep.

83HIS HONOUR:  And you have had one of these in the past, so what you have to do is you have to - let us just look at the - whether they made an appointment for you.  I don't think they did.

84OFFENDER:  (Indistinct words.)  That's what the ladies wrote down yesterday on my other card (indistinct words).  This one here.  It's on the back of the card, says it on the back, what they wrote.

85MR DICKENSON:  That appears to be so, Your Honour, Frankston Corrections, 2 pm Thursday 16 August.

86HIS HONOUR:  2 pm tomorrow, all right.  So thanks very much.  All right, well, so what you have to do is you have to go to Frankston Community Corrections Services within two days, but as you have told me, you have that appointment already for tomorrow at 2 o'clock.  So get down there tomorrow.

87OFFENDER:  Yeah, I (indistinct).

88HIS HONOUR:  And that is where the order will start.  They will explain the nature of the order to you.

89OFFENDER:  I'll have to be punctual and I'll have to be there.

90HIS HONOUR:  And they will explain to you the order and I know that there is a document here saying you consent to it being made and you understand it, but let me just spell it out as simply as I can.  Now, you have had one of these orders in the past.  Everyone who gets one of these orders, every order has the same set of mandatory terms.  It does not matter who it is, everyone has to comply, and you do.  

91OFFENDER:  Yeah.

92HIS HONOUR:  And the first of these is a pretty obvious one:  you must not commit any other offences in the period of that order, okay?

93OFFENDER:  Yeah.

94HIS HONOUR:  That is pretty straightforward.  If you commit any offence for which you could be imprisoned, you breach this order, okay? 

95OFFENDER:  Okay.

96HIS HONOUR:  So that is - virtually every offence these days you can be imprisoned for.  Even something, some tiny little theft from a milk bar.  I am not suggesting you are going to do it, but if you went and stole a Freddo Frog or something ‑ ‑ ‑

97OFFENDER:  (Indistinct words.)

98HIS HONOUR:  But any sort of theft, any - virtually every offence these days is punishable by a term of imprisonment.  So what you have to do ‑ ‑ ‑

99OFFENDER:  (Indistinct words).

100HIS HONOUR: ‑ ‑ ‑ you have to stay out of trouble, okay?

101OFFENDER:  (Indistinct words).

102HIS HONOUR:  All right, anyway, you must not commit any offence in the period of the order, okay?

103OFFENDER:  Yeah, all right.

104HIS HONOUR:  You have to turn up and receive and report for visits with the Community Corrections crowd.  They will tell you when to turn up, you turn up.  Okay?

105OFFENDER:  Okay.

106HIS HONOUR:  You let them know if you are changing your address - well, you do not have a job, but if you change address, you let them know, okay?  Do not just wait - you have to let them know within two days of shifting.  You would let them know before you shifted, okay?

107OFFENDER:  Are they (indistinct) ‑ ‑ ‑

108HIS HONOUR:  Just keep listening.  You are not allowed to leave Victoria without getting permission to do so, okay?

109OFFENDER:  Yeah.

110HIS HONOUR:  Well, I do not know whether you are going to be wanting to leave Victoria.  No doubt if you had a good reason for a holiday or something like that they would give you permission.

111OFFENDER:  (Indistinct) see my mum.

112HIS HONOUR:  Correct, but do not just get up and leave, all right?

113OFFENDER:  No.

114HIS HONOUR:  You speak to them and say "This is what I want to do, this is where I want to go", and I am sure they would let you go.

115OFFENDER:  They'd let me go.

116HIS HONOUR:  But if you just get up and leave you will breach the order.

117OFFENDER:  Then I'd be in trouble. 

118HIS HONOUR:  You will be.  And you have to obey all their instructions, okay?

119OFFENDER:  Okay.

120HIS HONOUR:  And if you are turning up as you will be told to for supervision at the Frankston Community Corrections services, they will give  you times and dates, you must turn up.  And when you turn up, you must turn up totally unaffected by alcohol and drugs, okay?

121OFFENDER:  Yeah.

122HIS HONOUR:  So you do not ‑ ‑ ‑

123OFFENDER:  I don't drink (indistinct words) ‑ ‑ ‑

124HIS HONOUR:  You do not drink, you do not use drugs.  And in any event, if you use drugs you will be committing an offence on this order and you might breach it, okay?

125So they are the terms that apply to everyone who gets one of these orders.  They apply to you.  Do you understand?

126OFFENDER:  Yes, Your Honour.

127HIS HONOUR:  Okay.  And that is not that hard.  You stay out of trouble and you turn up when you are told to turn up.  That is not that difficult.

128OFFENDER:  Okay.

129HIS HONOUR:  And you let them know if there is any change of address.

130OFFENDER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

131HIS HONOUR:  The other conditions that I actually impose here in this case is I think you do need to be under supervision, and so I am making it a condition of this order that you are under supervision of a Community Corrections officer for 12 months.  Now, you will be assigned a Community Corrections officer and, as I say, you will have to turn up for supervision when they tell you to turn up.

132OFFENDER:  How does that work?

133HIS HONOUR:  Well, they will tell you.  And in fact it ‑ ‑ ‑

134OFFENDER:  Supervision, what do you mean?

135HIS HONOUR:  Just a - they will tell you to turn up at an appointment.

136OFFENDER:  And then they just talk to you.

137HIS HONOUR:  Yes, and they will talk to you and if you have any problems you will talk to them and it might in fact assist you, okay?

138OFFENDER:  Okay.  (Indistinct words).

139HIS HONOUR:  And if there are any particular issues that you have, maybe housing issues or other sort of concerns, you can actually talk to them and they might be able to assist you in the community as well.  So it will not be a bad thing, it is only a good thing.

140OFFENDER:  Okay.

141HIS HONOUR:  But it would be a bad thing if you do not turn up.  If you do not turn up you will be in breach of this order.

142OFFENDER:  All right.

143HIS HONOUR:  I am also then placing on the order a requirement for some treatment and rehabilitation conditions.  And I am just not sure what, if anything, they will suggest in relation to this.  Probably nothing, I suspect, if you are, as I am told, under the Peninsula mental health service.  They will simply tell you to keep turning up at that service, all right?

144OFFENDER:  Yeah.

145HIS HONOUR:  But if you are not, I am leaving this condition there so that they can give you directions to attend for mental health assessment and treatment, okay?

146OFFENDER:  Okay.

147HIS HONOUR:  But as I say, if - they will find out very swiftly, and I am sure it is the position that you are under the Peninsula mental health, I am sure under this condition they are just going to tell you to keep turning up and keep getting

your depot injections.  But as I say though, there will be this condition that you undergo any mental health assessment and treatment.  That includes all sorts of things but I do not need to specify it on those.  Any mental health assessment and treatment as they direct you to attend, all right. 

148OFFENDER:  Okay. 

149HIS HONOUR:  Secondly you must participate in any programs or courses that the Corrections crowd think might stop you from offending in the future.  Now, I ‑ ‑ ‑

150OFFENDER:  What's that, sir?

151HIS HONOUR:  They might want you to turn up at some sort of program or course but maybe they will not.  I do not know.  I am putting that there just to assist them to assist you.

152OFFENDER:  Okay.

153HIS HONOUR:  They may think that your attending at the community mental health service, the Peninsula Mental Health, getting your treatment there, having a case worker there is the main thing to keep you out of trouble.

154OFFENDER:  Okay, Your Honour.

155HIS HONOUR:  But it is possible that they might think that there is some education or program that might further assist you.  Yes.

156OFFENDER:  I was talking to my flatmate, he was in gaol and he's out of gaol and he goes to Corrections.  He was doing the church service they had at - at the gaol he was at at Ararat.

157HIS HONOUR:  Yes.

158OFFENDER:  I think he had - that - I know where the - where the Corrections is where you're talking about.  There's a big vacant like part of the building there on the left as you walk in at Frankston.  How about putting a church service there for people who are Corrections and I can do something along the lines of helping people with church stuff.

159HIS HONOUR:  Well I mean you can raise that with them but ‑ ‑ ‑

160OFFENDER:  What do you think about that?

161HIS HONOUR:  Yes, well, no doubt they will - you have a chat to them about ‑ ‑ ‑

162OFFENDER:  Start services through the week on their days where they come in and do corrections get - get the word of God into 'em.

163HIS HONOUR:  Yes, all right.  Well anyway, that is a thought but in any event they are the ‑ ‑ ‑

164OFFENDER:  Seems like wasted space all that.

165HIS HONOUR:  ‑ ‑ ‑ terms and the conditions of this order.  Now, look, I will have Mr Dickenson just come and have a chat to you.  I will give you a draft of the document at this stage.  Do not have it signed at this stage, Mr Dickenson but just for your purposes just go down - do you want me to leave the Bench for a little while or not?  I am happy to. 

166MR DICKENSON:  Look, in the circumstances it's probably not a bad idea, Your Honour.  If Your Honour would give me ten minutes.

167HIS HONOUR:  Yes, look, I will leave the Bench.  I will come back onto the Bench in about ten minutes, Mr Parsons.  I just want to make sure that you understand what this order involves and so Mr Dickenson can have a chat to you about that.  But in fact before I do that ‑ ‑ ‑

168OFFENDER:  I understand. 

169HIS HONOUR:  Just grab a seat again, Mr Dickenson, I will leave the Bench in a second.  What I have not explained and this is what you have got to understand.  This order if you fail to comply with it, if you breach it so if you do not turn up for supervision when you are told to turn up, if you commit any offences in that 12 month period, if you left your address and did not tell them.  If you left Victoria without permission.

170OFFENDER:  Yeah.

171HIS HONOUR:  If you did not go to mental health assessments and treatment or do the programs or courses that they think you should do, you would breach this order, all right. 

172OFFENDER:  Yeah.

173HIS HONOUR:  And if you breach this order then it comes back to this court.

174OFFENDER:  (Indistinct words).

175HIS HONOUR:  Just hold on, just hold on.  You will have lots of questions you may want to ask ‑ ‑ ‑

176OFFENDER:  Nah.

177HIS HONOUR:  Before you ask me I am going to give you a chance to speak to Mr Dickenson.  He will be able to ‑ ‑ ‑

178OFFENDER:  (Indistinct words).

179HIS HONOUR:  ‑ ‑ ‑ explain lots of this.  But what I will need you to understand is this, if you breach this order you get ‑ ‑ ‑

180OFFENDER:  Yeah.

181HIS HONOUR:  ‑ ‑ ‑ brought back to court.  You do not like coming to court.  All right.  It is very stressful for you but you get brought back to court.  And if you are brought back to court in breach of this order, firstly breaching one of these orders itself is a criminal offence, all right.  But secondly if you breach the order I have then got to work out what to do with you, all right.

182OFFENDER:  Yeah.

183HIS HONOUR:  And what often happens when one of these orders is breached is the order is cancelled but - and I know your last one was cancelled but sometimes it is cancelled and then the judge has to then resentence you, to select another sentence, all right. 

184OFFENDER:  Okay.

185HIS HONOUR:  And if that occurred there would be a risk ‑ ‑ ‑

186OFFENDER:  Yeah.

187HIS HONOUR:  ‑ ‑ ‑ that you would be sent to prison, do you understand?

188OFFENDER:  Can I say one thing?

189HIS HONOUR:  Yes, well have a chat to Mr Dickenson in a moment.

190OFFENDER:  I need to say it to you though.  On Fridays every two weeks is when I have my depot, I have to be at the clinic at Davey Street so it won't be the day - that day, will it.

191HIS HONOUR:  No, no, no.

192OFFENDER:  Make sure it's not that day.

193HIS HONOUR:  No, no, they will work all that sort of thing out.

194OFFENDER:  Work it around the days I've got to be there.

195HIS HONOUR:  You will talk to Corrections, you will tell them about what appointments you have, what things you have to attend and they will work around those things, all right.

196OFFENDER:  That's what I was worried about, I was worried that (indistinct words).

197HIS HONOUR:  Yes, do not worry about that.  My worry is this, lots of people are happy to be placed on these orders and they leave court and they are happy when they leave court.  But then lots of people breach them. 

198OFFENDER:  No, I (indistinct words).

199HIS HONOUR:  They do not turn up for the supervision.

200OFFENDER:  (Indistinct words) no, I won't.

201HIS HONOUR:  This is not a particularly difficult order for you.

202OFFENDER:  No.

203HIS HONOUR:  But what you have got to understand is if you breach it you are going to see me again.

204OFFENDER:  Okay, Your Honour.

205HIS HONOUR:  You do not want to see me again and I do not want to see you again, all right.

206OFFENDER:  Okay, Your Honour.

207HIS HONOUR:  And the best way of us avoiding seeing each other is for you to comply, to follow this order.

208OFFENDER:  Yeah, I understand.

209HIS HONOUR:  But if you do not, we will see each other again and if we see each other again then there is a real chance that I will cancel the order ‑ ‑ ‑

210OFFENDER:  (Indistinct words).

211HIS HONOUR:  ‑ ‑ ‑ and if I cancel it I might have to actually send you to prison, you understand.

212OFFENDER:  Heaven forbid that that happens, Your Honour.

213HIS HONOUR:  Correct.  And it does not need to happen.

214OFFENDER:  No, that's correct.

215HIS HONOUR: Look, I am going to leave and I will come back onto the Bench in a moment and I will ask whether you understand and whether you are consenting to be placed on this order.  If you are I am going to place you on this order.

216OFFENDER:  I consent.

217HIS HONOUR:  Well you do at the moment but I just want to make sure that you do understand what it all involves.

218OFFENDER:  I understand.

219HIS HONOUR:  And that you are actually consenting to it.  All right.  So I will come back onto the Bench in about ten minutes.  All right.

220OFFENDER:  Ten minutes. 

221HIS HONOUR:  Yes.

222OFFENDER:  Can I go down and have a quick smoke?

223HIS HONOUR:  We will make it 15 minutes then and maybe you can have a chat on the way down there, do you think

224MR DICKENSON:  We can do that.

225HIS HONOUR:  And yes, all right.

226(Short adjournment.)

227MR DICKENSON:  Grateful for that opportunity, Your Honour.

228HIS HONOUR:  Yes.

229MR DICKENSON:  I've had the - gone through the order in detail with Mr Parsons, explained it to him, answered all of his questions and he has consented to it and signed the document.

230HIS HONOUR:  All right.  Well I'll get him to just sign that order then.  Thanks.  Has it been signed, has it?

231MR DICKENSON:  It has been signed, yes, Your Honour.

232OFFENDER:  I just signed it (indistinct), Your Honour.

233HIS HONOUR:  All right.  Well just remain seated though, Mr Parsons.  So Mr Dickenson has gone through and explained this order to you and he tells me ‑ ‑ ‑

234OFFENDER:  Yes, Your Honour.

235HIS HONOUR:  ‑ ‑ ‑ that you consent to this order, is that so?

236OFFENDER:  Yes, Your Honour.

237HIS HONOUR:  And you've signed this order, have you?

238OFFENDER:  Yes, Your Honour.

239HIS HONOUR:  All right.  All right. 

240OFFENDER:  Even - even the fact that if ah - if I show any signs from Corrections and needed to go back to hospital to admit myself back and say "Yes, take me (indistinct) back to hospital"

241HIS HONOUR:  Anyway, but you consent to this community corrections order?

242OFFENDER:  I consent to all that, yeah I consent to all that.

243HIS HONOUR:  All right, well I've signed it as well.  Then you'll get a copy of this in a moment once we've finished.  There's also an application for the police to run a swab around the inside of your mouth to ‑ ‑ ‑

244OFFENDER:  That's fine, Your Honour.

245HIS HONOUR:  ‑ ‑ ‑ and there's consent to this as well and so this is - it's referred to as a forensic procedure.

246OFFENDER:  That's fine, Your Honour.

247HIS HONOUR:  It's a big grand term but that's what it amounts to, they're going to - when you attend at the police station that's what they'll do, they'll take just a - it sounds bad, a scraping from your mouth but it's a swab just around the inside of your mouth or cheek.  It's not difficult.  I haven't authorised a blood sample.  I'm doing - authorising the scraping from your mouth.

248OFFENDER:  Okay, Your Honour.

249HIS HONOUR:  And what you'll need to do, I order that that sample is to be provided.  I think it's justified to make the order owing to the seriousness of this offence, the fact that you've got a relevant prior conviction, the fact ‑ ‑ ‑

250OFFENDER:  (Indistinct), Your Honour.

251HIS HONOUR:  ‑ ‑ ‑ that it's not opposed and that I think it is in the public interest that you provide the sample.  So I know you're saying yes, you consent to it, and you do.  When you turn up at the police station that's what you'll have to do, you turn up at the police station ‑ ‑ ‑

252OFFENDER:  Oh yeah, do I still report in?

253MR DICKENSON:  No.

254HIS HONOUR:  No, no, no, no.  No, as you've been on bail for this, reporting on this.  No, you won't need to - if that's what you ‑ ‑ ‑

255OFFENDER:  I reported last week after court and they said there's no need to, I got to the police station so ‑ ‑ ‑

256HIS HONOUR:  Yes, once it's - there's no bail undertaking, is there?  This is it?

257MR DOYLE:  This is it ‑ ‑ ‑

258OFFENDER:  So for the tongue test ‑ ‑ ‑

259MR DOYLE:  Not that we know of, Your Honour.

260MR DICKENSON:  We'll get that sorted out, Your Honour.

261HIS HONOUR:  Anyway, look, don't worry about that, you just ‑ ‑ ‑

262OFFENDER:  Andrew will tell me what's going on.

263HIS HONOUR:  You'll get a copy of this document as well.  What you've got to do is turn up at the Frankston police station in the next four weeks, all right.  Just get down there, do it sooner rather than later, they'll get it done and ‑ ‑ ‑

264OFFENDER:  I'll do it today, Your Honour.

265HIS HONOUR:  Yes, all right.  And ‑ ‑ ‑

266OFFENDER:  If (indistinct words).

267HIS HONOUR:  But take the document with you and then they'll know why you're there because otherwise it's a bit hard for you to explain why you're there but if you've got the document ‑ ‑ ‑

268OFFENDER:  Okay, maybe I - maybe I'll leave it a week.  That's Wednesday.

269HIS HONOUR:  Well you do whatever you like but just don't leave it too long, all right. 

270OFFENDER:  I won't leave it too long.

271HIS HONOUR:  So that's what you'll need to do, you need to turn up at the police station for that procedure to be undertaken and that'll be at the Frankston police station in the next four week period and as I say, take a copy of the document, they'll know what you're there for.

272OFFENDER:  Okay, Your Honour.

273HIS HONOUR:  So I think that's the only other matter that I need to ‑ ‑ ‑

274OFFENDER:  I've had my DNA done - done before if you needed to know that.

275MR DICKENSON:  No.

276HIS HONOUR:  Well no, I don't but in any event ‑ ‑ ‑

277OFFENDER:  I did it at ‑ ‑ ‑

278MR DICKENSON:  Different purpose. 

279OFFENDER:  ‑ ‑ ‑ Frankston Human Services. 

280HIS HONOUR:  Might've been a different purpose for that so don't worry about that.  Anyway ‑ ‑ ‑

281OFFENDER:  It's Frankston Human Services (indistinct words).

282HIS HONOUR:  So that's what I've done, I've placed you on a community corrections order, I've made that forensic sample.  I'll just sign the actual formal order and then you'll be - then you'll be right to go. 

283OFFENDER:  And I'm not to lose this piece of paper that was handed to me, am I going to take this to the Corrections office, the one I've signed.

284HIS HONOUR:  You'll get a copy of the order.

285OFFENDER:  So I'll get a copy of this ‑ ‑ ‑

286HIS HONOUR:  You've got one already, have you.  Well ‑ ‑ ‑

287OFFENDER:  That's the photocopied one. 

288HIS HONOUR:  I have to tell you that when you turn up at the police station even though you're saying you're going to turn up and consent to it ‑ ‑ ‑

289OFFENDER:  Yeah.

290HIS HONOUR:  ‑ ‑ ‑ if when you turn up you don't they can use reasonable force to take that scraping but it shouldn't be an issue.  You just - they'll give you a swab and that'll be done very easily, all right?

291OFFENDER:  Okay.  Reasonable force, (indistinct words) I consent to it now but ‑ ‑ ‑

292HIS HONOUR:  They'll ask you to do it, then they'll tell you to do it, all right.

293OFFENDER:  Oh okay. 

294HIS HONOUR:  But they shouldn't have to tell you, they're going to ask you and you'll do it, all right.

295OFFENDER:  Oh okay.

296HIS HONOUR:  All right.

297OFFENDER:  (Indistinct words).

298HIS HONOUR:  All right, well I've signed that order.  Are there any other orders I need to make?

299MR DOYLE:  No, Your Honour.

300HIS HONOUR:  All right.  Well thanks very much for your assistance each of you.  Well that completes the matter then.  So Mr Parsons, whether we see each other again or not is entirely up to you, you understand?

301OFFENDER:  Okay. 

302HIS HONOUR:  Hopefully we won't, all right. 

303OFFENDER:  Hopefully at a coffee shop or something.

304HIS HONOUR:  Well coffee shop's one thing but if it's in a court it'll be because you've breached the order and you don't want to do that, all right.

305OFFENDER:  Okay. 

306HIS HONOUR:  So yes, all right. 

307OFFENDER:  What's this one I'm getting?

308HIS HONOUR:  That's just the order that I've just made for the swab in your mouth, all right.

309OFFENDER:  Oh that's - that's what that one, that's - okay.

310HIS HONOUR:  Yes, all right.  All right, well look, I'll ‑ ‑ ‑

311OFFENDER:  Will I be better off going to the Dandenong police station for that or ‑ ‑ ‑

312MR DICKENSON:  No, no ‑ ‑ ‑

313HIS HONOUR:  No, go to Frankston.

314OFFENDER:  'Cause Jennifer - Jennifer Williams is the one that ‑ ‑ ‑

315MR DICKENSON:  Go to Frankston.

316HIS HONOUR:  Well don't worry about that, go to Frankston.  They'll know why you're there.  Take that document with you.  All right.  I'll stand down I think at this stage.  Thank you. 

317COUNSEL:  Thank you.

‑ ‑ ‑