Director of Public Prosecutions v Magro (a pseudonym)

[2017] VCC 1717

IN THE COUNTY COURT OF VICTORIA Revised
(Not) Restricted
Suitable for Publication

AT MELBOURNE
CRIMINAL JURISDICTION

DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS

v

EDWARD MAGRO (a pseudonym)

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JUDGE:	HER HONOUR JUDGE GAYNOR
WHERE HELD:	Melbourne
DATE OF HEARING:
DATE OF SENTENCE:	17 November 2017
CASE MAY BE CITED AS:	DPP v Magro (a pseudonym)
MEDIUM NEUTRAL CITATION:	[2017] VCC 1717

REASONS FOR SENTENCE
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Subject:
Catchwords:
Legislation Cited:
Cases Cited:
Sentence:

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APPEARANCES:	Counsel	Solicitors
For the Director of Public Prosecutions	Ms R. Yousuff
For the Accused	Mr S. Tovey

Pages 1 - 19

 

 

HER HONOUR: 

1Edward Magro,[1] you have pleaded guilty before me to three charges of recklessly causing serious injury and four charges of making threats to kill.  The facts underlying your offending are as follows.  This offending occurred over a period of about ten years during your marriage to Paige Magro.[2]

[1] Edward Magro is a pseudonym.

[2] Paige Magro is a pseudonym.

2Around 15 January 2004, you were tidying up in the background of your home, at which time your eldest son Chett[3] was just under three months.  You and Ms Magro had an argument about her wanting to attend a family function, you wanting her to stay at home and help tidy, continue tidying up the backyard.

[3] Chett is a pseudonym.

3There were three steps connecting the house to the backyard and at one point you had gone into the kitchen or at the top of the steps while Ms Magro was walking up them.  When she was nearly at the top of the steps, without warning you pushed her, causing her to fall backwards and landing heavily on her right arm.  You apparently laughed.

4These actions underlie Charge 1 on the indictment, recklessly cause serious injury.  Ms Magro heard Chett crying and went inside to comfort him, sitting on a couch and holding Chett in her left arm.  She asked you to take her to the hospital but you told her she could not go because she was not allowed to tell doctors what had happened.

5The next day Ms Magro was still in considerable pain and her arm was swollen and you agreed to take her to the doctors but threatened her with words to the effect, "If you open your mouth, I'll kill you".  This statement underlies Charge 2 on the indictment, making a threat to kill.

6Medical records from the Marina Medical Centre indicate that Ms Magro, who attended there, sustained a mid-shaft fracture to the right ulna with eight millimetres separation between the two fragments.

7Ms Magro reported to medical staff that she had had a fall and apparently you were present at the time of her medical examination.  She underwent surgery at the Monash Medical Centre to repair the fracture, which involved internal fixation and her arm was in plaster for eight months.

8On 10 March 2009, when Ms Magro was preparing dinner for the family at your home and your two sons, Chett and Gavin[4] were playing outside on the trampoline, the safety net was torn and Gavin fell through the netting and onto the concrete, causing him to cry.

[4] Gavin is a pseudonym.

9Ms Magro went to help him and while she was helping him get up, you approached her and punched her hard in the left eye.  She fell on the ground in pain and started to cry and you said words to the effect, "You deserve that, you should look after the kids more".  Your actions in punching her in this way underlie Charge 3 on the indictment, recklessly causing serious injury.

10The next day, you drove Ms Magro and Gavin to the Marina Medical Centre, where she was referred to the Monash Medical Centre and X-rays and a CT scan were taken.  These revealed that Ms Magro had sustained fractures to the left orbital floor and medial wall.  That is, she had sustained fractures to the bones of the eye socket.

11She also sustained temporary paralysis of the muscle controlling dilation of the pupil.  Medical records indicate that Ms Magro reported she had sustained her injuries in a fall from a trampoline and in a head clash with her son.

12Charge 4 on the indictment relates to an incident on or around 22 March 2010, around which time you had been continually asking her to participate in a sexual threesome with you and another person.  She would tell you she did not want to do this.

13On 22 March 2010 at your home, while the children were at school, you again asked Ms Magro about participating at a threesome and she told you it would never happen.  You then became angry, called her a "bitch" and kicked her in the left rib area.  Ms Magro fell to the ground, holding her left side.  As I have said, these actions underlie Charge 4 on the indictment, recklessly causing serious injury.

14While Ms Magro was lying in pain on the ground and having difficulty breathing, you walked up into the master bedroom and a few minutes later when
Ms Magro had got her breath back, she was able to tell you she needed to go to the doctor.  You said to her words to the effect, "You can go to the doctors yourself but don't tell them what happened.  If I find out, I'll kill you.  I'll do worse to you".  Those words underlie Charge 5 on the indictment, making a threat to kill.

15Ms Magro drove herself to the Wells Road Medical centre, where records indicate she reported injuring herself while running after the kids.  X-rays revealed fractures to the sixth, seventh and eighth ribs, with mild displacement.  She was prescribed analgesics to aid her recovery.

16Charges 6 and 7 on the indictment relate to an incident on 24 October 2014, when Ms Magro was sitting at home on the couch in the lounge room, helping Chett with his homework.  Gavin was in his room and you were in the master bedroom, talking on the phone.  At about 6 pm, you yelled out to Ms Magro that you needed her Newstart allowance money to send to your girlfriend in Thailand.  Ms Magro said she would not give you the money as she needed it to pay for bills and food.

17You asked her two more times for the money and both times, she refused.  After the third time you walked out of the bedroom holding a double-barrelled shotgun and approached where Ms Magro and Chett were sitting on the couch.  You pointed the gun between their heads at eye level, the muzzle of the gun being about a centimetre away from Ms Magro’s right eye.

18She asked you if the gun was empty and you replied, "It might be or it might not be".  You then pulled the trigger.  The gun made a "click" sound as it was not loaded.  Ms Magro screamed, told you to put the gun down and stretched her arm out in front of Chett and with her other arm pushed the gun away.

19She told you to put the gun away or she would telephone police and in the meantime, Gavin had come out of his room and seen you pointing the gun at his mother and brother.  He ran back into his room, clearly terrified.  You went back to the master bedroom, put the gun away then came back into the lounge room and said words to the effect, "It's okay, I put it away.  You don't have to be scared anymore, I'm not going to kill you" and you left the house. 

20On 2 November 2014, you left for Thailand.  On December 8 2014, whilst you were still overseas, Ms Magro went to police and reported the firearm incident.  On 9 December 2014, police attended your home and seized the firearm.  On 17 December 2014, Ms Magro applied for an intervention order against you for herself and her sons.  In her application, describing the incident that took place on 24 October 2014 as well as the other incidents of violence committed by you, against her.

21You returned to Australia in late January 2015.  On 6 February 2015, you were interviewed in relation to failing to store your firearm correctly and the matter was dealt with by the Dandenong Magistrates' Court on July 30 2015, you receiving a minor - just excuse me.  I am sorry, I am just looking for the prior criminal history.  Here we are.  I am sorry, could you help me, Madam Prosecutor?  I should have had a look at that myself, sorry.

22MS YOUSUFF:  It was without conviction, ordered to pay $500 to the court fund.

23HER HONOUR:  Yes, thank you.  You receiving a non-conviction fine.  Sorry, just excuse me.

24MS YOUSUFF:  Your Honour, I believe it was adjourned to 28 July 2016, so it would have been an adjourned undertaking.

25HER HONOUR:  All right, for which you received an adjourned undertaking without conviction and ordered donation to the court poor box.  On 17 August 2015, Ms Magro made a statement to police in relation to the incidents, the subject of Charges 6 to 7 and in early September 2015, police attended your home but you were in Thailand again at that time.

26Upon your return, you were arrested on 1 October 2015 and interviewed at the Moorabbin police station.  In addition to the matters detailed by Ms Magro in her August '17 statement, she had provided police with medical records and an affidavit she had sworn for the Federal Circuit court proceedings, in which she alleged the further incidents of violence by you against her.

27In your record of interview you made denials.  In relation to the gun incident, you said you had had a gun which you used as a child when you went hunting with your father, that you stored in a steel locked box and which you had not used in a long time.

28You said on 24 October 2014 you were cleaning a gun in your bedroom and that your sons were screaming about the PlayStation, that you put down the gun against the wall in the bedroom and went to stop your sons fighting, that you did not touch the gun again.

29When the allegations made by Ms Magro were put to you, you said "I'm not obliged to say anything" and that the allegations were "lies".  You told police you had a happy marriage with your wife, that you had never done anything.  You just "had an affair with another woman, she - this is all revenge to her".  In relation to the other charges, you told police that you were not obliged to say anything.

30I now turn to your personal circumstances. 

31You are now 46 years of age. You are of Italian parentage, growing up in Oakleigh, the sixth of eight children born to your parents, they having emigrated to Australia from Calabria before you were born.  You enjoyed a close relationship with your brothers and sisters and parents, none of whom have been in trouble with police and who have always been very supportive and protective of you.

32From a very early age, from the time you began school, it was clear you had fairly severe learning difficulties.  You were subsequently placed in special schools both for primary and secondary stages of your education, until the age of 15 or 16. 

33The secondary school that you attended arranged for employment for you in a metal coating power factory, where you worked for one to two years.  You then worked in a plastics factory, a timber yard and as a labourer on building sites.  In 2008 you suffered a lower back injury on a worksite, for which you were placed on a disability support pension and you have not worked since.

34You married your wife in February 2002.  You have two children.  Your marriage ended after your wife left you in 2015 and you have not seen the children since.  Ultimately, you left the family home and you bought yourself a small house in Morwell, where you have lived since.  Your older brother Carl[5] holds your financial power of attorney.  Whilst living in Morwell, your life has been uneventful, you are supported by your family and you spend a great deal of your time fishing. 

[5] Carl is a pseudonym.

35Whilst it was recognised you had learning difficulties, you were never formally tested or those difficulties diagnosed.  Ultimately, in the course of this plea, in the course of these proceedings, a neuropsychological assessment was carried out by Dr Loretta Evans.  This revealed an overall intelligence score of 67, which places you in the mildly disabled range.

36When I say mildly disabled, it should not be thought that this is a description of your disability.  Mild is simply mild in comparison with other disabled persons.  The cut-off range for intellectual disability services intake is 71.  The situation is that insofar as your day-to-day personal and emotional functioning is concerned, you are very much in the lower range.

37At the first plea hearing, I expressed some concerns over the fact that you had an IQ of 67 and yet behaved in a way which on the face of it appeared to indicate a sort of calculated cruelty on your part, in particular in relation to the gun incident, that belied the intellectual disability.

38At a second plea hearing, Dr Evans gave evidence.  She spoke of the testing revealing that you have a rigid personality, very concrete views, that you are easily frustrated when your views on what should be occurring do not occur and then, as a result of your intellectual disability, become easily frustrated and are unable to rationally work your way through those feelings.

39Most importantly, she said that whilst growing up, because there was no report of you being violent as a child insofar as the family was concerned, you would have learned from your family that certain actions were wrong.  She said you had the capacity to appreciate that you were doing things which were wrong and that there could be consequences to you which were not consequences you wished for.

40However, she said you had no capacity to appreciate the effect that your behaviour had on other persons.  I regarded this as extremely important evidence.  In short compass, although I probably have stated already, in short compass, you lack the ability to reason, to think before acting or problem solve.

41Again, Dr Evans said you have a tendency to frustration and leading to impulsive behaviour, one following the other but without you having the capacity to appreciate or understand the impact of that particular behaviour.

42Now, it is quite clear that on any version, the offending that you engaged in against your former wife and indeed your children who were witness to it, was extremely serious and appalling examples of violent domestic cruelty, if you like.

43I received victim impact statements from both your sons and from your former wife.  Ms Magro’s victim impact statement made for extremely distressing reading.  Overall, she stated "for ten years, I lived in fear under his control, unable to meet my parents, my friends and family regularly".  She stated many times she was frightened for her life and for her children's lives.

44She detailed the effects of the particular offending upon her.  For example, speaking of the incident of the broken arm, she says she has metal plating inside.  She wanted to leave after this incident but then found she was pregnant with her second son.  She said, "When I had weather changes, I have a great deal of pain.  I can't do house chores without resting regularly".  She said she lost strength in that arm, she could not lift weights, she could not do her previous job working in a factory making quilts that she had done previously.

45She cannot type on a keyboard without resting.  She said, "A part of me died.  I lost my identity and my dreams.  I am worried about finances all the time now".  She said she takes painkillers regularly if she needs to do heavy work.  She says that she is forced now to register with the disability sector. 

46In relation to the incident where you punched her in the eye, she suffers a residual injury so that sometimes she has blurry vision when she reads or watches TV for longer periods.  She is sensitive to light, she gets dizzy and often has migraines which can result in her being bedridden.

47She stated that in relation to the broken ribs incident, she said that your demand that she take part in a sexual threesome made her feel cheap and worthless as a woman, that she felt you were treating her as a prostitute, which indeed you were.  She said she still has pain on her left side if she bends down.  She needs her left arm for support as her right arm as very weak.  "This restricts so many activities and puts pressure on my back" and limits the type of work she can apply for.

48Overall, the emotional effect upon her has been that she is now hyper-vigilant, always worried about you coming to the school.  She has been unable to connect with other parents socially and help out with school activities.  She said that other parents were afraid to allow their children with socialise with Chett and Gavin.  She stated, "I am unable to even make an effort to meet with friends socially or go shopping on my own because I fear I might meet him or members of his family."

49Now, it appears that the likelihood of Ms Magro meeting you has been very much diminished by the fact that you live in Morwell and your paths are unlikely to cross but you have left her in a state of physical disability and extreme emotional distress.  And might I say, this is typical of the reactions that this court encounters with women who have been subjected to sustained violence in their homes by their partners in the way that Ms Magro has.

50The victim impact statements by your children are just simply distressing beyond words.  Gavin in his victim impact statement says that he thought he was going to die, never see his mum and brother again; that is in relation to the incident where you pointed a gun at both of them.  He said he became scared to go to the shops and to school, that he worries about seeing you or your family.

51Basically, he feels scared to go out alone.  He has just been left with a complete sense of fear about his place in the world.  He sounds, from what he has written, to be an anxious little boy.  In the section headed "In the future I think that", "I could have had friends, my brother would have had more friends.  I could have been better at schoolwork.  I could have played AFL footy."

52Turning to the heading "Do you want to tell the judge anything else?" he says, "I am happy in the house I live now.  I feel safe, I feel protected.  I am getting better at school, I'm going to school regularly.  I feel happy playing with my brother" and he feels sad about not being able to see his aunties and uncles, that is, your brothers and sisters, as a result of this family divide.

53Chett also made a victim impact statement where he said that the crimes against his mother made him scared.  He was worried he was going to die at the time that you pointed the gun at him.  He could not eat afterwards he could not sleep.  He locked himself in his room because he was scared.

54He did not want to go out, he could not go to school.  He was very scared that he might see you again.  He says, in the incident where you pointed the gun at him that he was not physically hurt but terribly frightened, that he had nightmares about the incident, he was afraid to walk alone.  He said, "I am scared that he will come and hurt me again".  And he said again, "I am frightened of him and his whole family".

55He said that living in his grandparents' home, that is Ms Magro’s parents, he felt safe and happy.  He had started doing better at school, making friends and that things were going better at school, so this is a very sad situation where, although you might not have understood the effect you were having on your wife and your children, they have suffered extreme emotional and physical consequences of the violence perpetrated by you on them.

56It was the view of Dr Evans that a strong protective factor in your life was your family, that your family have always been very protective, very supportive.  I note that they have always in large numbers attended every hearing in this matter and I am satisfied that they continued to be extremely supportive of you and have been, ever since this matter was reported to police and your marriage ended.

57I accept that normally, you do not present a danger to the community.  It was the view of Dr Evans, however, that were you to find yourself in a relationship again, the intellectual defects that I have outlined, that is, your rigidity, your tendency to frustration, then impulsive action combined with a lack of ability to appreciate the effect of those actions mean that you would be a danger to the community of any woman that you might partner with in the future.

58However, my finding in relation as to the principle of protection of the community is largely confined to that.  It was submitted to me by your counsel in a very helpful plea, very thorough plea, that I should find that the principles no. 1 and 2 in Verdins have application in your case, that is, that your intellectual disabilities are such that your moral culpability for this offending should be found by me to be lessened.

59I accept that submission.  I accept it because of the evidence of Dr Evans to the effect that I have outlined but primarily because of her evidence that your intellectual disability is real, operates in the particular way in terms of your dealings with other persons in the way she has outlined but especially because of your inability to properly appreciate the effect of your actions upon other people.

60The question was raised about your capacity to travel to Thailand and it was the view of Dr Evans that you would have the capacity to fly to Thailand on a direct flight but not much more than that.  If there was any complexity to the flight, any complexity in your living arrangements, you would not be able to negotiate that.

61I do accept that you do have an intellectual disability, the function of which is such that your moral culpability for this offending is lessened.  I also accept that service of a term of imprisonment would be far more difficult for you than for another prisoner.  I do note that in the intervening period between the plea and these sentencing remarks and the handing down of this sentence, you have been assessed and taken on as a client by intellectual disability services.  It think that is - no, it has changed since then - Department of Health and Human Services.

62MR TOVEY:  Department of Health and Human Services, disability client support services.

63HER HONOUR:  Yes.  Disability client support services, so that this will affect where you are placed within the gaol, that is, you will be placed in an appropriate unit in the gaol which will make your experience of gaol a less difficult one for you.  Nevertheless, notwithstanding that catering for your disability in that way, I am still satisfied that service of a term of imprisonment will be more onerous for you.

64It was conceded from the outset that only a term of imprisonment is appropriate in this case and indeed, in my view, that was an entirely correct submission.  Domestic violence is an issue which, somewhat belatedly, is very much at the forefront of community concern.  Courts are expected to respond sternly and strictly to offenders who commit domestic violence.

65The domestic violence perpetrated by you was appalling and in each case I regard it as a serious example of a serious crime with dreadful consequences, primarily to your former wife, Ms Magro.  The incident involving your son Chett and witnessed by your son Gavin, I regard also as an appalling act of domestic violence against your children.

66I have referred to the victim impact statements at some length.  It is quite clear that unsurprisingly, your violent actions towards the members of your own family have led to long-lasting, serious adverse consequences.  Their position has improved because they no longer live with you but it is to be expected that it will take a long time for those little boys to recover from the violence that they witnessed and it will take your former wife a long time to recover from the emotional trauma she has experienced and that she continues to suffer physical difficulties to this day from the terrible physical violence that you perpetrated upon her.

67I understand that Ms Magro, via remote witness facility, is listening to these sentencing remarks.  I understand that she continues to fear you and that is only to be expected in the circumstances.  I want Ms Magro to understand that the court regards your offending against her as extremely grave and that it accepts everything she has had to say about the effect it has had upon her sons.

68However, in sentencing you, I do take into account that there is a lesser moral responsibility because of your intellectual disability and the court also takes into account the fact that gaol is going to be more difficult for you.  It is very important to the court that Ms Magro understands that only because of those two reasons, this sentence is a lesser sentence than it would otherwise be, but that this sentence does not in any way indicate that the terrible experiences she and her sons have suffered over so many years are not fully recognised by this court.

69In sentencing you, I do take into account your plea of guilty.  Again, I do apologise, it was - excuse me. 

70MR TOVEY:  Is Your Honour searching for the timing of the plea?

71HER HONOUR:  Yes, I am.

72MR TOVEY:  It was during the committal, after some cross-examination of
Ms Magro had taken place.

73HER HONOUR:  Thank you.

74MR TOVEY:  There had been discussions in the lead-up to that.

75HER HONOUR:  Yes.

76MR TOVEY:  But that is what ultimately resolved it.

77HER HONOUR:  Yes, thank you.  Resolution of this matter did not occur until after Ms Magro had been subjected to some cross-examination at committal mention, although there had been negotiations prior to that.  It cannot be said that this plea was necessarily entered at a particularly early stage.

78It was noted by Dr Evans that in her dealings with you, you did express remorse for your actions.  I accept that, as far as you are capable, you are sorry for what you have done but because of your intellectual disability, in the terms as described by Dr Evans, I am not convinced that it is such an expression of remorse that particular mitigation should be attached to it.

79The maximum penalty for recklessly causing serious injuries is 15 years' imprisonment.  The maximum penalty for threat to kill is 10 years' imprisonment.  Again, in sentencing you, I do take into account the matters I have described in relation to your intellectual disability, the lesser moral culpability and greater difficulties in gaol but also do sentence you on the basis that issues of general deterrence, just punishment, denunciation of your behaviour, are matters which remain at the forefront of this sentencing exercise.  Could you stand up please, sir.

80On Charge 1, you are sentenced to 18 months' imprisonment.  On Charge 2, you are sentenced to six months' imprisonment.  On Charge 3, you are sentenced to two years' imprisonment.  On Charge 4, you are sentenced to 18 months' imprisonment.  On Charge 5, you are sentenced to six months' imprisonment.  On Charge 6, you are sentenced to 18 months' imprisonment.  On Charge 7, you are sentenced to 18 months' imprisonment.

81The base sentence will be the sentence imposed on Charge 3, that is two years' imprisonment.  I order that eight months of each of the sentences imposed on Charges 1, 4, 6 and 7 and two months of the sentences imposed on Charges 2 and 5 be served cumulatively to the sentence imposed on Charge 3 and all other sentences, this giving a total effective sentence of five years.  I order that you serve a term of two years and six months before becoming eligible for parole.

82Pursuant to s.6AAA, I declare that had you not pleaded guilty, I would have sentenced you to a term of imprisonment of seven years and ordered that you serve a minimum term of four years imprisonment.  PSD?

83MR TOVEY:  No PSD to declare, Your Honour.

84HER HONOUR:  All right, thank you very much.  Have a seat, sir.  Thank you.  Now, an application has been made for a forensic sample, pursuant to s.464ZF.  It is my view that the offending is so serious that I should grant the application, do you have anything to say about that, Mr Tovey?

85MR TOVEY:  No, a sensible submission to make against that, Your Honour.

86HER HONOUR:  Thank you.  Very well, can you stand up, Mr Magro?  Number one, you are going to be going to gaol for about two and a half years.  All right, number two, what you did was terrible.  Really, really terrible.  You hurt Ms Magro really badly.  You broke her arm, you broke her ribs, you smashed the bone behind her eye, you pointed a gun at her head and you pointed a gun at Chett’s head and Gavin saw it.

87These are terrible things.  You have not been sent to gaol for as long as I could have because I know that you have got some difficulties yourself but what you did was terrible and that is why this has happened and Mr Tovey will explain it when you are taken down to the cells, all right.

88OFFENDER:  I'm sorry.

89HER HONOUR:  Yes, you should be.  You should be very sorry for what you did and you need to understand that Paige, Gavin and Chett are still scared of you and they are always probably going to be scared of you because of what you did.  All right, have a seat.

90Sorry, there is one thing I have to tell you.  Police are going to come and put a cotton bud inside your mouth and I said that they can do that and I need to tell you, if you don't let them do that, they are allowed to do it and they can hold you down while they do it, if they have to.  All right, have a seat.  Thank you.

91MS YOUSUFF:  Your Honour, there is just one point I wanted to clarify.

92HER HONOUR:  Yes. 

93MS YOUSUFF:  In relation to Charges 5, 6 and 7, is Mr Magro being sentenced as a serious offender?

94HER HONOUR:  He is sentenced as a serious, violent offender.

95MS YOUSUFF:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

96HER HONOUR:  Thank you very much.  Now I am hoping the family understood what I was saying there.  All right,  I am not saying - not, not recognising that your brother has not go intellectual disabilities but his personality make-up, one, is - you would have heard Dr Evans on the second time?

97VOICE (from body of the court):  Yes.

98HER HONOUR:  You know, if he is in a relationship and things do not go his way, he is going to go "bang".  That is how he is built and he is not going to understand the effect that it has.  That is really dangerous.  So it is really important that the family understands that for when he gets out, all right, and I hope you have been listening to the effect this has had on Paige and the kids.

99All right and I know I have made the comment before but the effect, what they have talked about in their victim impact statement is stock standard response to terrible violence, all right, and I do not know, I am not going to go into it, I do not know how the family is feeling towards her but you have got these two little boys who saw this happen.

100You have got your own kids, you sound like a very loving family, lots of nieces, nephews, all that sort of stuff.  She is still part of your family.  What would it be like if your kids were subjected to that, no matter how much you love your brother, they still deserve reassurance and safety.

101All right, I am probably stepping outside the bounds here but it is a really bad thing for kids to be scared of aunties and uncles that they should not have to be scared of and that sounds like what is happening, all right.  You know, it is everybody's dream to be part of a big, loving Italian family and there you go, it should still be available to them.

102Thank you very much.  Is there anything else that I need to attend to?

103MR TOVEY:  No, I do not think so, Your Honour.

104HER HONOUR:  Thank you, thank you very much Mr Tovey particularly.  It was a really, really thorough plea and making Dr Evans available was enormously helpful.  Without that evidence on the second occasion, I may well not have taken the attitude that I did.

105MR TOVEY:  Yes.

106HER HONOUR:  Towards the sentence that I have imposed, so I thank you very much for your efforts in this matter.

107MR TOVEY:  As Your Honour pleases.

108HER HONOUR:  All right, I had better stand down. 

109(At this stage the court proceeded with another matter.)

110Before I go, Ms Magro, did you hear everything all right?

111MS MAGRO:  Yes, I have.  Thank you so much, Your Honour.

112HER HONOUR:  Did you understand it all right?

113MS MAGRO:  Yes, I did, yes.

114HER HONOUR:  All right.

115MS MAGRO:  Yes.

116HER HONOUR:  The other thing is, I think is important, it is very unlikely that you are going to cross paths with Mr Magro again, is that clear?

117MS MAGRO:  Yes.

118HER HONOUR:  All right and I hope that assists in some way.

119MS MAGRO:  Thank you so much, Judge.

120HER HONOUR:  All the best, just to make sure you understood.  Thank you very much indeed.  Yes, thank you, you can take Mr Magro down, thank you very much.