Director of Public Prosecutions v Katalanos

[2021] VCC 529

IN THE COUNTY COURT OF VICTORIA

Revised

Not Restricted

Suitable for Publication

AT MELBOURNE

CRIMINAL JURISDICTION

CR 19-00362

DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS

v

ZACHARY KATALANOS

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JUDGE:	HER HONOUR JUDGE GAYNOR
WHERE HELD:	Melbourne
DATE OF HEARING:
DATE OF SENTENCE:	3 May 2021
CASE MAY BE CITED AS:	DPP v KATALANOS
MEDIUM NEUTRAL CITATION:	[2021] VCC 529

REASONS FOR SENTENCE

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Sentence:

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APPEARANCES:	Counsel	Solicitors
For the Director of Public Prosecutions	Mr D. Plummer
For the Accused	Mr Z. Zayler

HER HONOUR:

1Zachary Katalanos, you have pleaded guilty before me to one charge of intentionally causing injury, one charge of recklessly causing injury and one charge of intentionally damaging property.  I am appending the very detailed prosecution opening to my sentencing remarks, but in short compass, you at about 2.30 pm, on 26 January 2018, and one of your victims Dara Leonard, went to a Power House Football Club function in Albert Park and drank about 12 bottles of beer during the afternoon.  You then walked to a pub in Fitzroy Street, St Kilda, called Freddie Wimpoles with friends.

2At about 8 o'clock, they went to another pub called The Fifth Province and then at about 10 pm, Mr Leonard left the pub, The Fifth Province, after buying a beer and does not remember much after that.  His next memory was sitting on the side of the road, just down from The Fifth Province, leaning against a light post and two police officers and two of his friends with him and he noticed he had a lump on the right side of his head.

3What in fact happened, according to a number of witnesses, the contents of whose statements are detailed in the prosecution opening, was that as
Mr Leonard was leaving The Fifth Province, he went to a small alcove of a restaurant The Pizza e Birra and urinated against the front window.  You then apparently, came out of the restaurant as Mr Leonard and his friends walked to some nearby pedestrian lights.  Witnesses said that you had come out with what was described as a bar stool, but actually - appears to be a wooden chair and hit Mr Leonard from behind.  Mr Jones, one of his friends, saw him fall forward onto the road and he then turned around.  You were standing about a metre away and then you swung a barstool at Mr Jones, striking his head and back and he was knocked back onto the ground.  Police were called, after
Mr Jones got straight up and saw you walking back into the pizza restaurant.

4At this stage, Mr Leonard was still on the ground and looked as if he was in a lot of pain.  Later that night, Mr Jones noticed a lump on the back of his head where the stool had struck him and he had a stiff back, but did not require any medical attention for his injuries.  However, Mr Leonard was taken to hospital and you had caused him a great deal of injury.  He suffered a complex depressed fracture in the right side of his skull, which required emergency surgical treatment.  He had brain bruising, blood collection in the scalp, and he required incubation to maintain breathing.  Complicated surgery was undertaken and a doctor at the Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine later reviewed the notes and gave the evidence that there had been blunt trauma to the head, requiring surgery for complex bone fracture and where bleeding of the brain had occurred.

5It was his view that substantial force was needed to provide these injuries and witnesses said they saw you hit Mr Leonard, extremely hard indeed and that without emergency services, Mr Leonard was likely to have deteriorated and died.  It is possible he has a high risk of future seizures and he will be scarred and there is a risk of infections around a metal implant, which had to be placed in his skull.

6You also offended in another way on this particular evening, and that was while you were out on the pavement at about 11 pm, Jason Whyte was driving along Fitzroy Street, and saw what he thought was a male getting punched in the head by another man and the man, who was Mr Leonard, fell onto the road in the right lane in front of Mr Whyte's car.  Mr Whyte stopped his car, but he not wanting to become involved, was about to drive off. Then he saw you pick up the chair and throw it at his car, which struck the left rear hand panel.

7Mr Whyte then parked his car, got out and approached you.  By then you were at a table inside the Pizza e Birra.  He said 'You threw a chair, you're going to pay for it'.  You told him to fuck off before he got hurt.  Mr Whyte said he was not going to put up with this bullshit and was not going anywhere.  There were a couple of verbal exchanges between the two of you, but ultimately, Mr Whyte said he was not leaving until you paid for the damage and asked you for identification.  You gave your name and provided a mobile phone number which Whyte rang and your phone then rang.

8He said he wanted your address.  You told him that you would get his car fixed and you gave him your address in Deer Park.  Police then came in and asked Mr Whyte if he owned the car parked in Fitzroy Street.  Mr Whyte told police that you had thrown a chair at his car, but said he did not want to make a statement, he just wanted you to fix the car and then he left.

9Mr Whyte rang you a number of times and left messages, but you never answered.  There was no recorded message back to leave a message so he sent you an SMS text message saying 'answer your phone you piece of shit'.  He did not phone or send another message to the number, but got his car fixed, costing him about $1,400.  Your actions in relation to Mr Leonard underlie Charge 1 on the indictment, intentionally causing injury.  Your actions in relation to Mr Jones underlie Charge 2, that is recklessly causing injury to
Mr Jones and Charge 3, intentionally causing damage to Mr Whyte's car, relates to what I have just summarised in relation to your actions towards Mr Whyte.

10Eventually you were arrested by police, who found you at the restaurant.  They conducted a record of interview with you on 26 January.  You gave an address in Caroline Springs.  You said you had been to the pizza restaurant that evening, but could not really say how you hit the male with the chair, as you were very drunk and did not know actually what happened.  You did say you saw a guy urinating on the door.  You told police you had had about eight drinks of beer, about five drinks of Vodka and you had been drinking between 5 and 10 pm.

11Mr Leonard made a victim impact statement, where he talked about the fact that your assault left him with a depressed skull fracture and a bleed on the brain that required surgery.  He now has a long scar running down the side of his skull and has a dent in his skull. He has become very self-conscious and grown his hair long to hide the scar and the dent, but has a receding hairline, so cannot do that for long.  He said 'So every time I look in the mirror, that is in the future, I will be reminded of the assault inflicted on me'.

12He had to take a week and a half off work initially, and was unable to start working on a customer project based in New Zealand because he was not allowed to fly for six weeks.  He said he was an active member with the Power House Amateur Football Club but because of his injuries, he was unable to train for a significant period of the pre-season.  He said he had developed a great feeling of fear, was very anxious, and is quite anxious every time he leaves the house. 

'Having this uncontrollable feeling subconsciously that something might happen to me again and I just didn't feel safe for a long time.  These feelings led me avoiding social situations and I stopped doing day things I used to do like catching up with mates or going to footy training'.

13Mr Leonard made that statement on 20 April 2021.  That is a recent statement and shows that the effects of your assault upon him have been ongoing.  This matter did proceed to contested committal, although it was a confined committal and neither Mr Jones, Mr Leonard or Mr Whyte were called.  The matter was set down for trial.  It was adjourned off because of Covid and eventually settled to a plea of guilty on the plea indictment on 9 March 2021, although the prosecutor told me very fairly there had been negotiations previously.  You were originally charged with intentionally causing serious injury and an offer to plead guilty to intentionally cause injury was rejected, but then accepted and the matter was resolved on 17 March 2021.  The maximum penalty for intentionally causing injury is 10 years imprisonment.  The maximum penalty of a recklessly causing injury is five years imprisonment and the maximum penalty for intentionally damaging property is 10 years imprisonment.

14I now turn to your personal circumstances.  You are now 30 years of age.  You have had a very difficult history.  It appears your father was very young when you were born, only about 16.  He essentially lived the life of a drug addict and alcoholic, and your parents separated when you were about four.  You saw your father every second weekend.  You have two younger siblings and from a very young age, felt extremely protective of them, particularly when your father was around.

15You had a very difficult time when you did visit your father.  He used drugs.  He drank excessively.  He was often violent.  He was in and out of gaol.  You remember one occasion, being driven home by police in the police car.  Most concerningly, a couple of times, when you were staying with him, he tried to kill himself and as a boy, aged about 12 or 13, had to cut your father down on one occasion.

16It is quite clear, particularly when you look at your prior convictions which did not come up until quite late in your life and all seemed to follow a pattern, that you have absorbed a great deal of trauma from your early years.  You were not particularly academic at school, but you were very good at sport.  You played tennis and became a junior state champion. You have not seen your father for many years.  You grew up in South Australia.  Your mother re-partnered, they are still together and you have a younger step-brother, Brendan. 

17I received a psychological report from Luke Armstrong.  I will talk a little bit more about your involvement with Mr Armstrong, but his report was very helpful.  You talked about moving schools many many times due to your father's chronic drug and alcohol problems and his offending.  The family often moved because of drug debts.  There was violence between your parents.  Your father served two years gaol in the United States and you said that he came home, bursting through the door after serving the gaol sentence and bashed your mother.

18You said that your father once tried to kidnap you and you then essentially kept in contact with him because your sister wanted to and you took a very protective role towards her.  You said that while staying with your father, he would “flip out” and smash up furniture in front of the pair of you.  You said while your sister was constantly impressed by your father, you thought he was an idiot. You said 'I would never leave my sister alone'.

19You said he and his friends were always drunk or drug effected and that there was no concern or appreciation for the fact that you children were in his care. You said you had a very close relationship with your sister.

20When you left school, you commenced an apprenticeship in plastering and qualified within the four years.  You were promoted to foreman in your final apprenticeship year.  You completed your building licence via year one of night schooling, in addition to fulltime work and you also managed to save $40,000. You then set up your own building company which went extremely well.

21At the same time, you formed a relationship with a young woman named Rosemary.  She was an intelligent person who was attending university and the relationship went on for a number of years.  You began working extremely long hours, the relationship suffered and eventually, she terminated the relationship.  You told Mr Armstrong that after that, everything suffered for about two years, including the business and you eventually moved to Melbourne.  You also at that time became obsessed with body building and experimented with steroids.

22You then set up a business in Melbourne, fitting up shops, and this was also successful.  You were working all around Melbourne, but told Mr Armstrong that you could not be alone, had to have a relationship and started a relationship with a second woman, Keisha.  This was a toxic relationship marked by arguments and breakups.  Your relationship with Keisha broke down a week before this offending and you went into a significant depression.

23Your brother and sister knew what was happening, so they came over to be with you and took you out for a night on the town.  You have been a regular binge drinker since you were about 16.  That stopped when you met Rose, because she did not drink, but you took up drinking again after the relationship ended, reporting to Mr Armstrong you would drink up to 20 standard drinks a night. That behaviour increased when you moved to Melbourne, although you limited this drinking to weekends.

24So I have said that you came to offending a bit late.  The offending you engaged in that night was extremely violent.  You basically attacked a man probably, it would seem, because he urinated on the front window of the restaurant where you were having dinner.  You followed him out, you attacked him with a chair, you then attacked Mr Jones and then you threw the chair.  You caused enormous damage to Mr Leonard and then you threw the chair at Mr Whyte's car. I saw a picture of the chair and you managed to do a great deal of damage with it. So really it was a trail of destruction on that night.

25You were charged in relation to these matters.  Your solicitor encouraged you to go and see a psychologist, but you did not. About three months later you went to Crown Casino.  You had formed another relationship very quickly.  You got into an argument with this woman on the pavement, outside Crown Casino, grabbed at her bag and other people intervened.  You got into another fight and were charged with a number of assault offences, and placed on a community corrections order.

26That involved an order that you undergo mental health treatment.  You were sent off to a Men's Behaviour Program, but you did not enjoy the process at all and so ultimately, you did not go and you were eventually breached on that order.  You were also dealt with on 7 June in 2017, on charges of unlawful assault, using an unregistered motor vehicle and fraudulent use of a registration label, for which you were fined.  Again, it would appear, that was an occasion where you were drunk and got involved in a fight.

27So it seems that all those years of binge drinking on the weekend eventually caught up with you.  It is very common for the courts to see men like yourself, who have been the subject of significant trauma, who have got on with it, if I can put it that way, but who then come under the disinhibiting use of alcohol and all the trauma rage and anger that goes with it, come erupting out like a volcano. You basically launch yourself on anyone in the vicinity (and particularly in the case of Mr Leonard) you feel has in some way caused you some affront, such as, as I have said, urinating on the window of a restaurant where you were.

28Fortunately, after being charged again and going back and then breaching the order, you actually sought psychological help.  Mr Armstrong had written the original report.  You attended on him.  You ran into a few problems in 2018 which I have not mentioned,  and had some financial stress, where you were owed $300,000 by a builder who refused to pay. Clearly that seems to have been a problem, but the matter that I find the most significant was the breakup of your relationship about a week before this offending took place.

29You were assessed by Mr Armstrong in February of 2019.  He talked about your binge drinking.  He also talked about the underlying psychological problems from your childhood experiences.  The situation then very much changed, as I have said, and that is - I am just referring to Mr Armstrong's heading 'Trauma Legacy and Diagnostic Considerations' and he said that you present as an emotional survivor of chronic childhood emotional neglect, 'while his mother served as a protective factor, your client's exposure to violence, a generally unsafe home environment and neglect at the hands of his father was severe'.

30He noted that you had engaged in no specialist trauma interventions.  He said you presented with features of a resilient personality, but he said you displayed what is called significant unreconciled anger.  Does that make sense to you?

31OFFENDER:  Yeah.

32HER HONOUR:  Very well.  'And resentment towards his father for the abuse'.  He said:

'Whilst your client is intelligent, he is completely naive as to the extent of his unreconciled trauma and combined risks associated with heavy alcohol abuse'.

33He talked about an untreated borderline personality disorder, with features of a dependent personality disorder which relates to your need to always have a relationship.  He said you had an emerging alcohol abuse use disorder at the time.  Then ultimately, you said that eventually you were using alcohol to self-medicate, if you like, to block out the feelings that arose up every time you were not working.  So as I remarked on the plea, you very much present as someone who has to be busy all the time, or the sort of feelings of neglect, self-loathing, misery that arise from your childhood tend to come up and that is why you have been using alcohol.

34Fortunately for you, you have done a great deal of work.  You have attended what is called a Motivating Affect Self-Control Program run by Mr Armstrong.  It is described as providing a strategy that contains steps to assist recovering substance abusers, in addition to those with offending backgrounds, to self-regulate emotion within a motivational framework.

35Mr Armstrong states in his second report:

'MASC gives participants a program that incorporates their trauma legacy with subsequent addiction and related problems.  The program ultimately aims to reduce the experience of automatic high emotional responding'.

36You see what I mean?  You see someone - you are drunk, you see someone urinating on a window and you respond in that high anger way, that high emotive responding that they are talking about.  'An emotional reactive behaviour, which underpins addiction'.  Additional objectives of the program are to provide a sense of self-accountability and responsibility.

37So it has been shown to be an extremely effective program.  It is linked to Odyssey House.  The report states, 'Specifically the longer addicts remain in treatment, the better their treatment outcomes'.  You have done this program three times.  It is a five to seven week modality and that is very much to your credit.  Mr Armstrong notes that ideally, the MASC program is repeated three times.  He also noted that you engaged with the services of Amanda Brown who is well known to this court, twice weekly, from February 2020 until Covid got in the way.

38You have reported three singular relapses, but you committed to engage in the program. You undertook it and you completed it in the three times as was recommended.  Ultimately, in a third report from Mr Armstrong, he noted that you completed the program and as I have said, I received a report from Tracey Allen, a psychologist of the program.  She said you consistently presented as a highly engaged client, that you had demonstrated consistent abstinence from illicit substances and periods of abstinence from alcohol.

39She said that these periods were tracked with supervised analysis.  She said you had been clear about your vision moving forward to significantly reduced alcohol consumption and completely avoiding inebriation.  She said that you had demonstrated insights into your previous use and particularly, your level of intoxication at the time of the offending.  She stated:

'His newly found capacity for conscious insights and living less reactively, will likely assist him in avoiding contact with the criminal justice system'.

40What is very important is that you are now in a new relationship and this is the relationship that is described by Ms Allen as being positive and nurturing, and your partner is four months pregnant.  She stated 'Mr Katalanos has embraced the reality that he will soon be a father'.  Ms Allen said that she has spoken to your partner, Ms Rondragese who reported that you were emotionally and practically supportive throughout this time.  She said that you rarely drink alcohol and then when you do drink, you do not drink to excess.

41And so I am satisfied that you have come a very long way since the time you committed this offending.  I also received a number of references.  I received a long reference from your sister who clearly loves you very much, and she talks about the very protective role that you played in her life.  She also talked about the trauma that you underwent and spoke about you in glowing terms as clearly being a wonderful brother to her. But it was also clear from what she wrote, that you have actually taken on quite a strong parenting role at the expense of your own emotional life and trauma resolution.

42I received also an extremely impressive reference from Kurt Mitchell Oprae.  He is an IT professional in a company that employs about 40 people across Australia and the UK.  He brought you in because he says he wanted someone to bring his vision of a paradigm changing charity app to life and the two of you have formed a company called Games For Good Proprietary Limited and you have launched Solar Cyclist which is an app based on your model, where cyclists contribute towards the provision of solar power for individuals, as well as community and medical centres across the world, in places where they are living without access to electricity. Mr Oprae makes the very good point that people who do not have access to electricity, are very often people living in poverty.

43To date, this app has impacted, he says, over 50,000 people’s lives, with the provision of solar power and electricity to a million people.  A second app is being based again on what he described as your thought bubbles, that will see people in developing countries sharing insights into their villages and towns, along with old family recipes and that will be promoted as an uptake in developing countries.  He has described you as a creative, caring, honest and fiercely loyal individual, with a solid grip on his privileged position in the world and an insatiable drive to help those less fortunate.

44Mr Oprae described you as a one in a billion individual, with the tenacity and intelligence to make a significant difference to the charity industry, writing 'His continued engagement with me and my developers will have enormously beneficial outcomes for countless people across the globe'.  He described your offending as powerfully out of character.  That is an extremely impressive reference in terms of your community contribution. 

45I do not know if I a hundred per cent agree with him about the powerfully out of character.  It seems to me that you were developing a way of living that led to you drinking to excess and then becoming violent.  I am satisfied that in the more than three years since this offending occurred, you have very much changed your lifestyle.  You are in a completely different position, particularly emotionally and with regards to alcohol, than you were.

46I regard the link between your drinking and your offending as being extremely strong and I am satisfied that that drinking has been, as this court often sees, a way of medicating yourself from the psychological trauma that still swirls around inside you, if I can put it that way, Mr Katalanos. I am also satisfied you are a person who has been very active in setting up work for himself, and ordinarily a responsible and contributing human being.

47But for the trauma and the link with alcohol that has led to the drinking, I doubt that you would have ever appeared before a court, but you have now and this is the third occasion.  As I said to you on the plea hearing, you are now before the County Court and in the future, so if you get into any more trouble, if this pattern of drinking and violence re-emerges in your life, you can only expect a court, with the state that your prior history is in now, to deal with you by way of a term of imprisonment.

48Although it was conceded that a combination disposition comprising a term of imprisonment and a community corrections order was appropriate in your case, that is by the prosecution, the defence urged upon me that I deal with you by way of a community corrections order only.  I have decided, because primarily of the delay that has occurred in this case, and the significant rehabilitative steps that you have undertaken, to deal with you by way of a community corrections order only.

49It will be longish.  It will two years and nine months.  You will have to undertake work hours, which is going to be difficult for you because you are a very busy man and you are about to become busier once you have a baby.  But I am satisfied that protection of the community is not something to which I have to have particular regard, because of the reforms that you have eventually made in your life.  I am satisfied that specific deterrence is not of special importance in this sentencing exercise because I am satisfied, you are remorseful for your offending and that you have taken steps to ensure that you do not behave in this way again.

50I note that you have written a letter to Mr Leonard.  I read it and I regard it as genuine and it is my view that if the prosecution do not have it, it should be given to the prosecution and the informant to notify Mr Leonard, as to whether or not he wishes to receive it, because I do think it might be of some comfort to him.  As Mr Leonard made clear in his victim impact statement, when you are attacked out of the blue, life can become a far more frightening exercise than it once was and that is clearly still something that he experiences.  Mr Plummer, can I ask you, was Mr Whyte contacted about the making of a compensation application?

51MR PLUMMER:  Yes, Your Honour, the informant made efforts to contact him again since the plea and he has not responded to the message.

52HER HONOUR:  All right.

53MR PLUMMER:  He was told that Your Honour may well be minded to make a compensation order.

54HER HONOUR:  Yes I would have been.

55MR PLUMMER:  So if he got the message, he was aware of what it was about.

56HER HONOUR:  Yes.

57MR PLUMMER:  But he hasn't contacted the informant.

58HER HONOUR:  Very well, all right.  Very well then, so the primary reason that I am placing you on the community corrections order, as I said, is because of the delay and the reform you have undertaken.  Ordinarily, general deterrence, that is the requirement that a court send out a message to the community that persons who offend the way you have, can only expect to be dealt with sternly,  that is, by the way of imposition of a term of imprisonment, can be achieved through the imposition of a community corrections order. The Court of Appeal in Bolton's case made it clear, that a community corrections order does have that capacity.

59But understand Mr Katalanos, do not walk out of here kicking up your heels thinking 'Hooray, I've escaped gaol'.  That order will be hanging over your head for the next two and a half years.  I will be imposing judicial monitoring and I will be monitoring your progress.  The order will also include a requirement that you attend for treatment and assessment for alcohol abuse and that you undergo mental health treatment, neither of which I think you are going to particularly enjoy, particularly because you have done the MASC program and you are probably thinking 'Why should I?  I've done lots of work already'.  But they are going to be conditions of the order.  Are you prepared to enter this order?

60OFFENDER:  Yes, Your Honour.

61HER HONOUR:  Thank you.  I need to explain to you in formal terms, what the conditions of that order are.  They are firstly, that you must report to the Community Corrections Office within two days of the making of this order, that is by Wednesday of this week.  Whilst on the order, which will last for two years and nine months, you must not commit any offence punishable by imprisonment.  That does not mean you only would breach the order if you committed an offence and were gaoled.  If you commit any offence for which theoretically, you could be gaoled, like knocking off a box of matches in Woolworths, that will breach the order, you will be brought back in front of me and I will resentence you on this, all right?

62Whilst on the order, you must report any change of address or employment within 48 hours of the making of that change.  You must not leave Victoria without the permission of the Community Corrections Office.  You must not attend upon the Community Corrections Office under the influence of drugs or alcohol.  You must report to and receive visits from the Community Corrections Office and you must obey all lawful directions of the Community Corrections Office.

63I am going to order that you undertake 150 hours of unpaid community work.  You must attend for assessment and treatment for alcohol misuse.  You must attend for assessment and treatment for mental health difficulties.  You will also undergo judicial monitoring.  I will put the first judicial monitoring down for four months time.  What that means is, you have to attend upon the court and you can do this by video.  You can either go to the Community Corrections Office or we can link you in, but I will be receiving a report from the Community Corrections Office about your progress, all right?

64OFFENDER:  Yes, Your Honour.

65HER HONOUR:  Thank you.  We will just get the paperwork together.  What's the date today?

66ASSOCIATE:  We've got a date Your Honour of 10 September.

67HER HONOUR:  On 10 ‑ ‑ ‑

68ASSOCIATE:  September.

69HER HONOUR:  At 9.30?

70ASSOCIATE:  Nine-thirty.

71HER HONOUR:  Yes, so the first judicial monitoring will be 10 September.  The other thing I am going to say is that the hours of rehabilitation can come off, can be deducted from his work hours.  I am doing that because I know you are a very hardworking man and whilst the work hours have been imposed as a punitive measure, I am particularly keen to see you really keep going with your psychological treatment, in particular. 

72I have no doubt that you have achieved a great deal in the MASC program, but trauma is something you have been carrying around all your life and you do need to do more of that work and I will be sending my sentencing remarks, together with the reports, to the Community Corrections Office.  You need to tell them that you want trauma specific counselling, all right?

73There are lots of different types of psychological counselling, but quite often, it is not suitable for trauma related problems that you have.  So I am making the remark in my sentencing remarks that you should be referred for trauma specific counselling and I will be checking up on that when you come back before me on the judicial monitoring, all right?  Now I will just check it.  Yes, thank you.  We will get Mr Katalanos to sign that, thank you.

74Because the order is more than two years long, I have to make a statement pursuant to s.6AAA, which is that had you not pleaded guilty, I would have sentenced you to a term of imprisonment of three years and order that you serve a minimum term of fourteen months.  Now Mr Katalanos, I know that I have said that I am really keen on you having the psychological counselling and it is not going to be easy, but it would be good if you could regard this not just as a punishment, but as a resource.  If you can work through this, your need to work a million hours a week and to keep busy all the time, will subside a bit, all right?  You will actually be able to be still a bit of the time.  Did the MASC program help you with that?

75OFFENDER:  Yep, it did a lot, Your Honour.

76HER HONOUR:  It did a lot, yes.  Look it can go a bit ‑ ‑ ‑

77OFFENDER:  Yeah.

78HER HONOUR:  It can go further and it'll be extremely helpful when you are having children.

79OFFENDER:  Yep.

80HER HONOUR:  All right?  There is nothing like the stress of a child to bring it all out Mr Katalanos, let me tell you.  So I really want you to take that as seriously as you can and I know I am repeating myself, but it is really important that it is trauma specific counselling as well.  Is there anything else that I need to attend to?

81MR PLUMMER:  No, Your Honour.

82HER HONOUR:  Thank you very much.

83MR ZAYLER:  No, Your Honour.

84HER HONOUR:  Thank you, I will see you in September Mr Katalanos.  Good luck with this.

85OFFENDER:  Thank you.

86HER HONOUR:  You know ordinarily, you are not a bloke who should have ended up in the court, but you did not do it just once, you did it three times.  So we have got to make absolutely sure we put this one to bed, all right?  Thank you very much sir.  I thank counsel for their assistance and we will stand down until 3.30.  Thank you very much.

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