Director of Public Prosecutions v Hill

[2016] VCC 1487

IN THE COUNTY COURT OF VICTORIA

AT GEELONG

CRIMINAL DIVISION

Revised
Not Restricted
Suitable for Publication

Case No. CR-16-01590

DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS

v

PAUL HILL

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JUDGE:	HER HONOUR JUDGE HAMPEL
WHERE HELD:	Geelong
DATE OF HEARING:	4 October 2016
DATE OF SENTENCE:	5 October 2016
CASE MAY BE CITED AS:	DPP v Hill
MEDIUM NEUTRAL CITATION:	[2016] VCC 1487

REASONS FOR SENTENCE
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Subject:  
Catchwords:            
Legislation Cited:     
Cases Cited:            
Sentence:                 

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APPEARANCES:	Counsel	Solicitors
For the DPP	Mr K.J. Doyle	OPP
For the Accused	Ms M.E. Casey	VLA

HER HONOUR:

1       By early 2015, you Paul Hill were 75 and had been living a hermit like existence, or at least a hermit like existence in this age of electronic communications. You had established a permanent camp in the Great Otway National Park near Apollo Bay. Although camping was not permitted, and authorities were apparently aware that you were living there, you were allowed to remain. You had set up a generator to provide yourself with power, and a satellite dish which enabled you to have internet access.  

2       Between 2 March and  27 August last year you sent, on my count, 199 emails to the Premier of Victoria.   Many were copied to many other people. The content was so disturbing, that by late March, by which time the first 40 odd had been sent, you had been interviewed by police, and charged with stalking and making bomb threats and demanding money. 

3       You were released on bail, but undeterred by the fact you had been charged and bailed, you continued to send emails to the Premier and others. In fact, after the first time you were charged, the threats and the demands escalated.

4       The emails started with complaints about a psychiatrist at the Barwon Health aged psychiatric ward. You made veiled threats to plant a dangerous biological substance like sarin, phosgene or Legionella at the hospital. Those threats were soon followed by demands for millions of dollars in compensation, threats to the global community, references to mass killers and terrorist attacks. You demanded an enquiry into the deaths of two deckhands who had worked on abalone boats operated by you 40 years earlier and in respect of whose deaths  you felt that you had been unfairly blamed. You expressed grievances about other matters: having been bankrupted by the Australian Tax Office, also about 40 years ago, and having lost your assets including your abalone boats and licence.  You justified your behaviour by reason of these past injustices, and demanded compensation and redress. You sent increasingly detailed descriptions of bushfire bombs which you claimed to have made, and to have planted around the state, and which you said had been primed so as to require you once a fortnight to re-prime them so they did not go off.  That is by reason of what you called a dead hand detonation mechanism. You threatened to go on a hunger strike until your death, and pointed out the consequence of that would be the detonation of the bushfire bombs. You demanded money be paid into your Centrelink account, and provided the account details. You sent a photograph what you said was one of your bushfire bombs and very detailed technical drawings and writings about the wiring mechanism along with claims about your expertise, some of which were true, which would have enabled you to understand how to construct and detonate such bombs.  You sent photographs of burning cities and bushfires.  

5       This bald and brief account does not really capture the bizarre and rambling nature of the many emails that you sent. It is difficult to provide a summary of the themes and the content of the emails which in any way adequately conveys their essence in summary form. They were, as the psychiatrist Dr Sullivan said, over inclusive rambling, self-referential, threatening, distressed and distressing.

6       It was clear that you considered that you were being provoked into making threats not only by reason of your past grievances, but because you were not receiving any response to the emails that you were sending to the Premier and others. You spoke at times of ratcheting up your threats because of the lack of response. Whilst on the one hand the bizarre nature of the emails and the content of them and of the threats could be dismissed as bizarre and deluded ramblings, the real concern of course is that the more bizarre and deluded they became, the greater was the risk of the harm that might flow were you to carry out the threats.

7       In May 2015, you did not appear at court in answer to your bail. Two further dates were fixed for court appearances in June and August, but you did not appear on either of those occasions. As a result, a warrant was issued. Meanwhile, you continued to barrage the Premier and others with bizarre and disturbing threats and demands, until you were finally arrested on 22 September last year. By then you had sent the last of the 199 separate emails. 

8       On the day of your arrest you were interviewed.  The interview spanned over 9 hours.  It was aptly described by Dr Sullivan as rambling and discursive. He said that many of the themes discussed by you in the interview were grandiose and persecutory, self-referential and egocentric. You admitted when interviewed that you had intended to induce fear in the Premier and the others to whom you sent the emails that you had the capacity to make the bombs that  you described in such detail, and the determination to detonate them.

9       Not surprisingly, you were remanded in custody.  Soon after you were remanded in custody you were diagnosed as suffering from a paranoid delusional disorder and by December of last year, you had also developed a severe depressive illness.

10      In Dr Sullivan’s opinion that depressive illness may have been in its early stages before you were remanded but it progressed markedly as a result of your incarceration.  You were so acutely unwell, that you were ultimately transferred to the Thomas Embling Hospital under a secure treatment order. There you were diagnosed as suffering an acute, severe depressive episode with psychotic symptoms. In fact, you had attempted self-harm, and an examination of your history in custody revealed you had been evidencing clear signs of depression, with psychotic and catatonic features for most of your time on remand.

11      An examination of your history also led to an appreciation that this depressive episode was not the first from which you had suffered. You had indeed, as your psychiatric history then revealed, had a history of recurrent depressive disorder and you had occasionally over the years been treated for it.

12      For those people who are unfamiliar with the treatment of the psychiatrically unwell in the prison system, hearing that a prisoner has been transferred from remand to the Thomas Embling Hospital may not mean much. But, Thomas Embling is a secure psychiatric hospital which treats, and cares for the psychiatrically ill from the criminal justice system. It houses people who have been found not guilty by reason of mental impairment of serious crimes, and whose risk of harm to themselves or others is such that they are subject to a custodial supervision order, and must therefore remain at Thomas Embling.  It also houses the most acutely psychiatrically ill prisoners within the criminal justice system. It is the only one in the state, and has only 116 beds to make available to people in the criminal justice system.

13      It is the only place in the state where psychiatrically ill prisoners or people held under a custodial supervision order can be housed and there are only 116 beds made available to all those people within the criminal justice system.  It is a matter well-known to those involved in the criminal justice system that Thomas Embling has insufficient beds to provide the necessary care for all in the criminal justice system who need its services and, as a result, only the most acutely unwell prisoners are able to be transferred there.  There are other prisoners who are eligible for and in need of a specialist forensic psychiatric services provided by Forensicare at Thomas Embling but they must wait their turn, and receive treatment in the acute assessment unit at the Melbourne Assessment Prison or, for female prisoners at Dame Phyllis Frost. Hence, the very fact a prisoner has been admitted to Thomas Embling indicates how seriously and acutely psychiatrically unwell they must have been.

14      What is now clear is that since the 1950’s you have had periods of psychiatric illness, and since at least the 1970s have spent time as an inpatient in psychiatric hospitals or units.  In addition to periods of mental illness, you have also attracted diagnoses of personality disorder. In 1994, you were treated by Barwon Health as an inpatient and diagnosed at that time as having a schizotypal personality disorder. More significantly, and closer in time to these events, in February of last year, just before the commencement of the conduct which has led to these charges, you were assessed by the Aged Psychiatric Team at Barwon Health and you were noted then to be showing signs of a personality disorder with narcissistic traits.

15      Following your admission to Thomas Embling a thorough examination of your mental state was conducted. Dr Sullivan reported that by April of this year your depressive symptoms had abated somewhat. You were then, he considered, properly to be described as, or those symptoms were, properly at that stage to be described as moderate, not acute symptoms of depression but also with somatic syndrome.  You also displayed features of anxiety, but he considered that they were associated with the mood disorder, rather than constituting a separate disorder. Significantly, Dr Sullivan also confirmed the existence of longstanding personality abnormalities, which he characterised as meeting the diagnostic criteria for a mixed personality disorder with paranoid, schizoid and narcissistic traits. In his opinion, the grandiose and egocentric elements of your behaviour were best attributed to abnormal personality, not another mental illness such as bipolar affective disorder.  

16      Expanding on that Dr Sullivan said this: 

"Mr Hill appears to have developed a persistent delusional disorder, as described in the ICD-10.  This was manifested in persecutory and grandiose ideation which clearly reached delusional intensity, and had a profoundly self-referential and even querulant quality.  With antipsychotic treatment, this appears to have receded, and Mr Hill displays much less fixation on his earlier beliefs, and marked uncertainty about whether his beliefs were correct.  Delusional disorder is a more likely in people with paranoid personality structures, but are distinguished by the delusional nature and severity of unusual beliefs which developed." 

17      Dr Sullivan considered the bizarre nature of the content of your emails supported the diagnosis of persistent delusional disorder.  It followed from that, in his opinion that at the time of the offending you were showing a range of marked preoccupations with corruption, the long ago boating accidents in which the deck hands of yours, as well is another deck hand you knew had been drowned, and when the boats, your boats had been damaged or destroyed.  Your preoccupations, he said,  also included your treatment by the Australian Tax Office, Barwon Health and other themes.  

18      Dr Sullivan noted the extensive email correspondence into these themes was interspersed with religious scientific and political material. As he said:  

"The materials make limited sense due to the rambling and over-inclusive content.  In addition, they draw together unrelated topics into paranoid tracts which appear self-referentially focused upon Mr Hill, with themes of persecution from a range of public bodies and professionals, premised on inferences which appear irrational, unlikely and far-fetched.” 

19      You also showed evidence, when Dr Sullivan examined you, of mild cognitive impairment. He noted that cognitive impairment commonly accompanies depression, particularly in the elderly. Although when he assessed you in April he considered you would not clearly meet a diagnosis of dementia your cognitive functioning warranted repeated future assessment particularly he said when there had been a significant improvement in your mood disorder.

20      Since you were assessed by Dr Sullivan in April your mental health has continued to improve. By May this year you had been granted bail by the Magistrates' Court and had been transferred from Thomas Embling to the Swanston Centre Acute Psychiatric Unit, here in Barwon Health. You remained there until late September of this year. Whilst at the Swanston Centre you underwent a 12 course program of ECT treatment as you continued even there to display signs and symptoms of severe psychotic depression.  The ECT treatment appears to have brought about a significant improvement in your mental state.   

21      According to a report from Dr Erica White the consultant psychiatrist with Aged Psychiatrist Services at the McKellar Centre and dated 2 September 2016, by then you no longer had any psychiatric symptoms.  Your mood was then euthymic, that is normal or within appropriate range.  You no longer wished to die, you were engaging in conversations with people.  So a far cry from the catatonic state you had been in earlier.  You were even displaying a sense of humour and you were eating and sleeping well.  You had even had a significant improvement such that you were able to resume engaging in an old hobby of yours, photography.  You had made such progress that plans were underway to discharge you from the Swanston centre to an aged care home and you had indicated to those who were responsible for your care that you no longer wished to live independently. 

22      By the time the matter came on for hearing before me yesterday, a place had been found for you in an aged care facility operated by Barwon Health Aged Care and you had made a successful transition there in the week leading up to the plea hearing.  I am told that you do not need the level of assistance that is able to be provided in that home, and you are on the waiting list for a unit in a supported accommodation facility also operated by Barwon Health Aged Care. It is anticipated that such a place will become available in about a month.

23      You are being provided with services by the Aged Psychiatric Care Unit of Barwon  Health, and you have been supported at court yesterday and today by your case manager. Dr White and your case manager both indicate that it is routine for Barwon Health to follow up patients who have had significant depressive episodes for 3 to 4 months following discharge from the Swanston Centre, before handing over care to a managing GP. It is anticipated therefore that you will continue to have case management and follow-up support from Barwon Health for the next 3 to 4 months.

24      The placement for you in the aged care facility is a permanent one in that you will continue to be offered a place.  Your progress has been such that it is not necessary for you to be under a community treatment order under the Mental Health Act. You indicate at this stage a positive and open attitude towards receiving the assistance and support provided to you by Barwon Health, and an intention to stay in an aged care facility operated by Barwon Health.  However, there is no compulsion over you to do so and whilst Barwon Health will continue now that you are a client of theirs to exercise care over you, that does depend to some extent on your remaining amenable to such care and treatment and remaining in a facility operated by them or in some other accommodation about which they know. 

25      You are physically frail. You have a number of significant health issues. Since babyhood you have a significant hearing impairment, as a result of meningitis when you were only nine months old.  You now able to hear properly again because since being discharged from the prison environment and Thomas Embling to the custody of Barwon Health or to the Swanston Centre you have been able to be refitted with working hearing aids.  You didn't have that in custody and that in itself must have made, not only your time there, but treatment there for you very difficult. 

26      During your time living in the bush, and during the time that you were on remand at the Melbourne Assessment Prison, your nutrition was very poor, and it would appear that certainly once you were remanded you were starving yourself as your depression worsened.    You spent a number of inpatient stays at the Austin Hospital or at St Vincent's whilst you were at Melbourne Assessment Prison and at Thomas Embling.  Amongst other things you were diagnosed as showing signs of starvation and malnutrition, as well as metabolic disturbances, pneumonia, pulmonary embolism, faecal impaction, incontinence problems hypertension and bradycardia. Your balance is poor and you now require a mobile walking frame to stop you falling and to give you balance as you walk. Hence your acceptance of your inability to live independently or your expression of a desire that you no longer wish to live independently appears to be an appropriate reflection not only of an improved mental state, but a recognition of your increasing physical frailty.

27      Despite your age and poor health, normally charges such as these would require that sentencing considerations of denunciation and deterrence carry considerable weight.  However there is overwhelming evidence to point to a strong causal connection between your delusional disorder and the offending behaviour.  It was Dr Sullivan’s opinion that your delusions prevented you from appreciating the wrongfulness of your conduct and impaired your judgement, that you were unable to think clearly or make calm and rational choices due to that delusional disorder.

28      It follows therefore that your moral culpability is significantly reduced by reason of that connection between the delusional disorder and the offending behaviour. A person whose offending is so powerfully linked to a mental illness is clearly one whose moral culpability is reduced, and one who therefore should not be punished in a way that stands as an example and a deterrence to others who might consider engaging in like conduct.

29      It is also abundantly clear that imprisonment had a significant, deleterious effect on your mental health and led to the development of the acute severe depressive episode, with psychotic symptoms. The impact of imprisonment on a person’s mental health, specifically where, as here, there is a real and demonstrated risk that imprisonment will worsen mental health is a matter which must be taken into account in deciding upon the appropriate sentence.  Therefore, the needs of just punishment are greatly reduced by reason of the causal connection between your mental health and the offending.  You are an inappropriate person to be made an example of, to recieve a sentence that gives considerable weight to general deterrence.  Although there must be denunciation of your conduct again, the weight to be given to that must be reduced by reason of the connection between your impaired reasoning process by reason of your poor mental health and the offending.

30      Although on the material before me it appears you are still fixated on what you believe to be the injustices of, now 46 years ago, in relation to the drownings of your deckhands and to a lesser extent the loss of your abalone fishing licence and your boats, it is also clear from the materials and from Dr Sullivan’s report,  Dr White’s report and in the report of your assessment for suitability for a community corrections order that you are finally recognising that you must let go of those matters, and that you cannot engage in the sort of conduct you did again in order to seek to redress for what you perceive to be the harms done to you so long ago.

31      Ms Casey in her plea submissions said, and correctly, that it was a tragedy, that until the second arrest, nobody had come to see you to do a check on your mental health to see whether you needed an assessment or care.  Whether that would have helped, given the assessment of your state by the Psychiatric Aged Team at Barwon Health in February 2015 is difficult now to predict, but nonetheless it is clear that unassisted and unchecked your behaviour escalated alarmingly over that 5 month period.

32      I am satisfied therefore that the needs of just punishment are significantly reduced because of the reduction in your moral culpability, and the need to denunciation likewise. I am satisfied that you are not an appropriate vehicle for general deterrence by reason of your mental state as you were unable to appreciate the wrongfulness of your conduct and your judgement was impaired. Your circumstances are significantly different now compared to your circumstances at the time of the offending. Your mental health has improved, and your physical frailty which may well have been undetected or the extent of it undetected before is now clearly diagnosed and documented and managed. All of this means it is unlikely you will be able to return to independent living even if you want to do so.

33      My real concern is to impose a sentence which given the reduction in your moral culpability and in the inappropriateness of making an example of you, nonetheless does, at a level appropriate to your circumstances, mark a denunciation of your behaviour and impose a penalty that will deter you and more importantly perhaps protect the community from you engaging in like conduct again.

34      You pleaded guilty and did so at what I accept to be the earliest appropriate opportunity given your circumstances and therefore it is clear too that the sentence that would otherwise be appropriate must be reduced by that acceptance of responsibility for your behaviour evidenced by your plea of guilty.  I accept as you have been restored to better mental health too that you are genuinely sorry for what you did and have an insight now into the potential impact of your behaviour on others.  An insight that was sorely lacking by reason of your poor mental health at the time of the offending.

35      Ms Casey submitted that the appropriate order was to release you on an adjourned undertaking with conditions that required you to report regularly on where you were staying and on your mental health progress.  Mr Doyle on behalf of the prosecution submitted that the appropriate order was a community correction order without any of the punitive elements that normally would attach to such an order but with protective or rehabilitative elements which would ensure that somebody was responsible for in effect, keeping an eye on you and making sure you didn't slip through any cracks in the system. 

36      In my view, given your history of poor mental health and despite the stability of your circumstances at the moment the need to impose a sentence that does provide a level of protection to the community as well as a deterrence to you means that you should be released upon a community correction order rather than an adjourned undertaking.  This is what I call a light touch community correction order.  One that has in addition to the core conditions only two special conditions and they are that you undergo any medical assessment and treatment as directed by the regional manager and that you undergo any mental health assessment and treatment as directed by the regional manager.

37      As I was discussing with Ms Casey before I moved onto sentence you, the report from Corrections makes it clear that they understand that you are unable to independently get yourself to the Community Corrections Offices here in Geelong and that you would need to be assisted by those who are responsible for your accommodation and care or your case manager.

38      Corrections seems to recognise that because in their report they say this: 

"Mr Hill has been assessed as a low risk offender, therefore he can be monitored under a reporting regime.  Mr Hill will be monitored with a combination of him reporting to the Geelong Corrections office when it is able to be facilitated by his care team, Corrections liaising with his care providers and outreach.  Outreach will be provided by his case manager conducting home visits to the aged care facility when it is not possible for Mr Hill to be brought into the Geelong Corrections Office.” 

39      I should say that would be the case manager appointed under the community correction order rather than the case manager appointed through Barwon Health who is with you and looking after you today.

40      The report notes that you are currently managed by Aged Psychiatry Services at the McKellar centre and that Corrections had been advised that this support will be in place for at least the next three months and that, consistently with what I was told on the plea yesterday, you are awaiting a place at the supported but independent accommodation facility that McKellar Centre has in mind.

41      I am told that you have provided your consent for Corrections to speak with your care providers to monitor your circumstances and that you understand that if you choose to leave any aged care facility that you are in, that you must advise Corrections of any new address you go to and that if you do choose to leave any aged care facility that you have been in, that you will still be subject to the  community correction order.  I am advised you also understand that you will not be permitted to leave the state unless a formal transfer of the order takes place and you have said that you have no desire to live interstate. 

42      Indeed, although you were born in Sydney and did your early vocational training in your early work there, your place of living has been down here in this part of the country for a long, long time. 

43      The report concludes that you present as an elderly man who has fixated on events from 46 years ago but whilst you have spent a very long time wanting the situation to be examined, you now understand you need to put your concerns to rest as they have resulted in your offending and being brought before this court, that you're aware that you cannot continue to focus on these issues and that you're ready to get on with your life.  That is consistent with the other psychiatric reports that have been provided to me and with what Ms Casey put to me on the plea. 

44      I therefore propose to convict you and to release you on a community correction order subject to the core conditions of a community corrections order and those two special treatment and rehabilitation conditions in relation to medical assessment and treatment and mental health assessment and treatment. 

45      Could you now please stand, Mr Hill?  On the two charges to which you have pleaded guilty that of making a bomb hoax and stalking by sending electronic messages to a person, you are convicted and you are sentenced to be placed on a community corrections order for a period of two years commencing today and ending on 4 October 2018. 

46      There are mandatory terms that apply to all orders and they are these:  You  must not commit any other offence for which you could be imprisoned during the time the order is in force.  You must comply with any obligation or requirement prescribed by Regulation 17 of the sentencing regulations.  That means that you must not be impaired by illicit drugs or alcohol if you are attending at Corrections for any visit and you must submit to drug or alcohol testing if asked to do so.

47      You must report to and receive visits from the Secretary or Delegate.  You must report to the Community Corrections Centre within two clear working days of this order starting.  The Community Corrections Centre is at the State Government Offices at Level 5, 30A Little Malop Street, that's just on the other side of the park. 

48      You must let a community corrections officer know within two clear working days if you change your address or job.  So, that means if you leave the nursing home you are in and you move to the independent supported accommodation facility you have got to let them know and if you leave that supported accommodation facility whether it is for another Barwon Health facility or anywhere else, you have got to let them know. 

49      You must not leave Victoria without first getting permission to do so from the Secretary or Delegate and you must obey all lawful instructions from and directions of the Secretary or Delegate. 

50      In addition to those core conditions that apply to all community corrections orders  you have these two special treatment and rehabilitation conditions:  You must undergo any medical assessment and treatment and that may include general or specialist medical treatment or treatment in a hospital or residential facility as directed by the regional manager and you must undergo any mental health assessment and treatment and that may include psychological, neuropsychological, psychiatric treatment or treatment in a hospital or residential facility as directed by the regional manager.

51      Now, what is meant by all of that is that essentially whilst you're staying in an aged care facility that is looked after by Barwon Health that all Corrections will need to do is to keep contact with them to ask how you're progressing and for them to visit you from time to time to see personally how you're progressing and if arrangements can be made for you every so often to be brought into the Corrections Office here in Geelong but, otherwise, you will continue to live as you have been for the last few months, under the care of Barwon Health and in a facility provided by them and with the medical and other supports provided around you.  So, no further conditions will be imposed on you in respect of that.  So, they won't be sending you to anybody else for any treatment or programs.  They will work in with those who are already looking after you.  Do you understand all of that, Mr Hill?

52      OFFENDER:  Yes.

53      HER HONOUR:  And do you consent to this order being made?

54      OFFENDER:  Yes.

55      HER HONOUR:  All right.  I am going to ask Ms Casey to bring that order down and ask you to sign it acknowledging that and then I will sign it and it will be made.  There are a few other orders I have to make but you can take a seat whilst I do those.  Thank you.

56      Mr Hill, I was asked to make forfeiture and disposal orders in relation to some of the items that were taken under the search warrant and I propose to do so.  Those orders were consented to by Ms Casey on your behalf.  I have also been asked to make a forensic sample order and Ms Casey opposed the making of that order.  I have decided that it is appropriate to make the order requiring you to provide a forensic sample because of the nature and circumstances of your particular offending.  Whilst I appreciate that you are well now and you are well under care, my concern is that if you become unwell again, that there may be a risk that you could commit further like offences and a forensic sample may well be appropriate to have on the database in those circumstances. 

57      Now, the order that I am going to make in relation to the forensic sample requires you to provide what is called a buccal sample.  That requires you to rub a thing like a cotton bud, a swab on the inside of your mouth until a sufficient sample has been obtained and I must warn you that if you do not co-operate in the provision of that sample then the police are authorised to use reasonable force in order to obtain that sample and that may mean that they will use the more invasive form of getting a sample, namely taking a blood sample.  Do you understand that?  Ms Casey will explain that further to you if you want any further explanation.

58      Now, that sample has to be provided within two months of now but you cannot provide it in the first month.  It has got to be provided in the second month from now.  Ms Casey will explain that to you.  There's a very complicated procedure; you have to allow a month to go by in case there's an appeal and at the end of that month if there's no appeal then you  must provide that sample. 

59      The order requires you to attend at the Geelong Police Station to provide that sample.  I would hope that some arrangements  may be able to be made between your case manager and the police for that sample to be provided with the police visiting you at the aged care facility where you are held rather than having to bring you with your difficulties in mobility and your difficulties generally in getting around into the police station but that is something I think I will have to leave for Ms Casey and your case manager to discuss with the police.

60      I am sorry.  My associate has just pointed out the address on the community corrections order is incorrect.  It has still got some reference which I suspect is to the address of the campsite at Apollo Bay.  So we will just have to print out a new form of order with your current address but we can do that and have that re-signed once I have stood down.  I will stand down.  Mr Hill can leave the dock but just wait in the body of the court and once that new order is produced and it is signed by him again in your presence, Ms Casey, I will sign the new order in chambers and then he will be free to go.

61      MS CASEY:  As Your Honour pleases.

62      HER HONOUR:  Can I thank you, Ms Casey and you Mr Doyle for your assistance in this matter?  I will adjourn.

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