Director of Public Prosecutions v Caulfield (a pseudonym)
[2022] VCC 760
•10 May 2022
| IN THE COUNTY COURT OF VICTORIA | Revised Not Restricted Suitable for Publication |
AT WODONGA
CRIMINAL JURISDICTION
| DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS |
| v |
| EDWARD CAULFIELD (A pseudonym) |
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JUDGE: | HER HONOUR JUDGE SYME |
WHERE HELD: | Melbourne |
DATE OF HEARING: | 28 April 2022 |
DATE OF SENTENCE: | 10 May 2022 |
CASE MAY BE CITED AS: | DPP v Caulfield (a pseudonym) |
| MEDIUM NEUTRAL CITATION: PSEUDONYM ORDER: | [2022] VCC 760 10 May 2022 |
REASONS FOR SENTENCE
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Subject: CRIMINAL LAW - Sentencing
Catchwords: Sentence – Incest – Representative charge – Indecent act in the presence of a child – Possession of child pornography – Continuous breach of trust - Serious offending – Early plea – Lack of relevant priors – Remorse – Physical and health problems – Covid considerations
Legislation Cited: Crimes Act 1958 (Vic).
Cases Cited:
Sentence: 14 years and 6 months imprisonment. 9 years non-parole.
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APPEARANCES: | Counsel | Solicitors |
| For the Director of Public Prosecutions | Ms S. MacDougall | Office of Public Prosecutions |
For the Accused | Mr B. Penno | Slater & King Lawyers Pty Ltd |
HER HONOUR:
Pseudonym Order
In this matter I order that any publication of the proceedings be subject to pseudonyms. The offender will be known as Edward Caulfield.[1] The victims will be known as Alice Bradfield,[2] Michael Caulfield[3] and Louise Bradfield.[4]
Sentence
[1] A pseudonym.
[2] A pseudonym.
[3] A pseudonym.
[4] A pseudonym.
1In relation to the sentence, I note that on 28 April 2022, you pleaded guilty to the following offences:
i).Charge 1, that at Suburb 1 in Victoria, between 1 January 2007 and 31 December 2008 you took part in an act of sexual penetration with a person now referred to as Alice Bradfield, a person whom you knew to be your grandchild, in that you introduced your fingers into the vagina of the child. The maximum penalty for that offence is 25 years.
ii).Charge 2: between 1 January 2008 and 31 December 2010 you took part in an act of sexual penetration with the same child, a person who you knew to be your grandchild, in that you introduced your tongue into the vagina of the child. The maximum penalty for that offence is 25 years.
iii).Charge 3: that you at Suburb 2 in Victoria between 1 January 2008 and 31 December 2010 took part in an act of sexual penetration with A. Bradfield, a person who you knew to be your grandchild, in that you introduced your finger into the vagina of the child. The maximum penalty for that offence is 25 years.
iv).Charge 4: at Suburb 2 in Victoria between 1 January 2008 and 31 January 2010, wilfully committed an indecent act with or in the presence of the child who was under the age of 16 years to whom you were not married. The maximum penalty of that offence is 10 years imprisonment.
v).Charge 5: between the same dates at Suburb 2, you took part in an act of sexual penetration with the child, a person whom you knew to be your grandchild, in that you introduced your fingers into the vagina of the child. The maximum penalty for that offence is 25 years.
vi).Charge 6: at Suburb 2 between the same dates - 1 January 2008 and 31 December 2008 - you wilfully committed an indecent act in the presence of that child who was under the age of 15 years and a child to whom you were not married. The maximum penalty for that offence is 10 years' imprisonment.
vii).Charge 7, between 23 July 2009 and 24 July 2010: took part in an act of sexual penetration with the child, a person who you knew to be your grandchild, in that you introduced your penis into the mouth of the child. The maximum penalty is 25 years. Again, that is an offence of incest. (Counts 1, 2, 3, 5, 7)
viii).The offences are the offence of incest, contrary to s44(1) of the Crimes Act and indecent act with or in the presence of a child under the age of 16 years contrary to s47 of the Crimes Act. (Counts 4 and 6)
ix).Charge 8, that at Suburb 2 on 22 July 2020 you knowingly possessed child abuse material. The maximum penalty for that offence is 10 years' imprisonment.
Prior Criminal History
2You do not have a significant criminal history. The minor offending on it is irrelevant to my considerations. However, you are otherwise of good character and your place within the family and the community have enabled these offences to be committed. Therefore, your prior good character is of small relevance as a sentencing consideration.
Other Consequences of Offending
3In addition to the sentence to be imposed today, you will be subject to registration requirements under Sex Offender provisions. These registration requirements will be lifelong and will be signed at the conclusion of these proceedings and sent to you. The fact of the provisions will be taken into account.
Serious Offender
4The Sentencing Act also provides that upon being convicted on two charges, you fall to be sentenced as a serious sexual offender of the third and following charges. The effect of this is that the protection of the community becomes a paramount consideration in sentencing.
5However, the prosecution submit that a disproportionate sentence is not required to give any effect to the protection of the community in this case. That being the case, while a significant sentence is anticipated, I propose some concurrency and some accumulation on each of the sentences to reflect a total sentence that properly reflects the seriousness of the offending as a whole.
6In addition, I note that charge 2 is a representative charge. As such, it represents offending on other occasions within the specified period. Representative instances are not aggravating circumstances. Therefore, the sentence that is imposed cannot be disproportionate.
7However, the fact that the charge is representative precludes any moderation in the sentence that may have been warranted if the charge was an isolated incident. In effect, representative charges give the offending behaviour context.
8In the context of all of these offences, however, the representative charge is one amongst many charges. This fact, together with all the other charges, will be taken into account when considering the totality of the offending.
Facts
9The facts relevant to the offences are as set out in the prosecution opening and are not in dispute. The offences occurred between 2007 and 2010 at Suburb 1 and Suburb 2 against your granddaughter, who I have called Alice. The offending occurred when she was between about four years and seven years of age. The child is the daughter of your son, who I will call Michael[5], the mother of the child, who I will call Louise[6]. When Michael and Louise separated, Michael lived for a short time with you and a family member in a property in Suburb 1.
[5] A pseudonym.
[6] A pseudonym.
10In around 2007, your former wife moved out of the home and Michael remained. In 2008, you and your son moved to another property in Suburb 2. During that time, Louise and Michael shared custody of the child Alice and every second weekend she would visit Michael who was residing with you.
11The offending occurred for the first time at Suburb 1, and escalated when you moved to Suburb 2. The first incident occurred when you lived at Suburb 1 when the child was around four years of age. She saw you crying in your room and came to console you. Your put your arm around her and put your hands down her pants and then put your fingers on her clitoris and rubbed in a circular motion. This represents count 1 on the indictment - incest. It is observed that the child was four or five years of age.
12In the property at Suburb 2 the child recalls an occasion when you licked her genital area and asked her to squirt on your face. You told her it was like peeing. This type of incident happened about 15 times between 2008 and 2010 and represents charge 2 on the indictment, incest, as a representative charge.
13On another occasion at Suburb 2, the child recalls you were playing a computer game. You put her on your lap to play the game with you but then began playing pornography on the computer. You told the child to open her legs then rubbed her genitals with your finger and put your finger inside her vagina. This is count 3.
14You then put the child's hand down your pants and manipulated her hand to masturbate your penis. This represents count 4.
15You then heard the child's father come home and told the child to quickly put her clothes back on. My observation is this demand was clearly an indication that you knew what you were doing was seriously wrong and you took steps to ensure that you were not found out. You knew exactly what you were doing, and you knew your son would be horrified. At that stage, there is no indication that you gave any thought to what the child was feeling.
16On another occasion the child recalls you were in the study and you had the child sit on your lap, and had the child choose a pornographic film. You then licked your fingers and put your fingers inside the child's vagina. This represents a serious charge of penetration of a very young child and is Count 5 on the indictment.
17You then grasped the child's hand onto your penis and moved it up and down until you ejaculated (Count 6). This, no doubt, was very confronting for the child and ejaculation in those circumstances must be an aggravating circumstance. The facts disclose, and it is not in dispute, that events of this kind happened approximately four or five times.
18I acknowledge that these uncharged acts do not form an aggravating part of the sentencing process, however, are relevant to the context in which sentencing occurred. It is obvious that you had groomed the child to the point that she felt such behaviour was normal and no doubt felt obligated to continue to indulge your behaviour. This is one part of the grooming process that is damaging to a child and damaging to the entire family. By this stage of your offending, there is no conclusion, other than that each of these events was planned and carried out in secrecy in order to avoid being detected by your family. Your behaviour indicated to the very young child that the secret behaviour was to be kept secret and this burden she carried for years.
19In about July 09 or 10, when the child was six years of age, you took her camping. You asked her to climb over and sit in the footwell of the driver's seat and to suck your penis. When she did so, you pulled down your penis into her mouth and moved her head up and down until you ejaculated into her mouth. She opened the car door and spat out the ejaculate. This is count seven. This is a serious and significant physical act of incest and is an offence of high range objective seriousness.
20When the child turned seven years of age, you said to her that you, 'Can't do it anymore'. It was because she was too young and it was wrong.
21The child first disclosed to her friend that she was terrified of you because you had sexually assaulted her. She told others that you had sexually assaulted her when she was about seven or eight. By this time, Alice was in her teens.
22In 2020, Michael called his daughter to ask her to go to the hospital to visit you after you had had a stroke. The child did not want to go, and shortly afterwards, disclosed the abuse to her mother and her maternal grandparents. The maternal grandparents then advised Michael and his mother. Subsequently Alice described the offending to them. The matter was reported to police and a statement was taken.
23By July 2020, Michael went to visit you. He activated a voice recorder function on his iPhone and recorded a conversation between himself and you regarding the offending. During that conversation you admitted some of the offending. You said you knew it never should have happened but reasoned to your son that if it was any consolation, it was you who stopped it. You also indicated that you knew it would come up one day, and that you did not go past a certain point. With this cooperation with the family, charges were able to be laid rapidly.
24On exercising a search warrant at your home, child pornography material was located. 106 images of interest were found. 45 images were categorised as non-illegal but indicative of an unnatural interest in children. 55 images were characterised as child abuse material with no sexual activity, and 6 images were categorised as child abuse material of solo or sex act between children. (Count 8)
25On being interviewed by police, you admitted a large part of the offending, and said you had stopped because you had become scared. You admitted that the offending happened every time she came to visit you. You were charged in March 2021 and granted bail. You have been in custody on this matter since 28 April this year.
Objective Gravity of the Offending
26The significant maximum penalties for each of these offences are an indication of the serious nature of the offending and the expectation that courts will deal with offences such as this with appropriate seriousness. Maximum penalties of 10 and 25 years respectively are a guide.
27It is necessary to consider the objective seriousness of each offence and the offending as a whole. When assessing the objective seriousness of the offences, individually aggravating circumstances common to all the offences include the age of the child, between four and seven, is very young. A child of that age confronted with such behaviour would be powerless to stop it, or even comprehend the seriousness and horrible nature of the acts.
28The fact that you were a loved and trusted grandfather is a serious factor, but the charge of what is one of incest and the familial relationship is not in and of itself an aggravating circumstance. However, the closeness of your personal relationship with the child and the trust you cultivated within the family was so egregiously breached, it is a circumstance that makes the offending more serious as a whole.
29I accept that the first occasion may have been an opportunistic act where you took advantage of your granddaughter's empathy and affection for you. Thereafter, however, the acts were planned and demonstrated by the steps you took to keep your offending secret. The offending occurred when you were trusted by the family to look after the child alone or when you took her from the house. You were a man of not only mature years, but a person who was familiar with the child due to your position within the family. You were placed in a position of trust by both the child and the wider family. Your continued breach of trust is a significant, and one of the most important, aggravating circumstances of offending of this nature.
30The physical acts perpetrated by you were serious examples of sexual penetration. The insertion of a tongue or finger into a young child's vaginal area is confronting and often physically painful. In those offences where you ejaculated onto her body or into her mouth, the confrontation would be significantly more serious. From time to time you told your grandchild that you would be in trouble if she told anybody, thereby making her responsible for a continuation of the offending, and in effect, being afraid to tell anybody lest the family be affected.
31This upending of responsibility resulted in the child feeling guilty for the offending herself, when clearly it was not her place to do so. My observation of the admissions made to your son, that it was you who stopped it, suggest that in some way this very young child had power to do so. Of course she did not. I observe that it was you who started it and continued it.
32Your statement that you did not go past a certain point is not a matter of mitigation. You used this very young child in secret for your own personal sexual gratification over three or four years, and did so all the time knowing and understanding that your behaviour was seriously wrong and criminal, and with no regard to the damage you were inflicting. Each of these offences is above midrange objective seriousness.
33With respect to the possession of child pornography, the court takes into account the number of any images and nature of the images. It must be observed that possession of child pornography is in and of itself not a victimless crime as has been observed on many occasions. However, considering the number and nature of images, this offence is in the low range of objective seriousness for the offence charge.
Victim Impact
34Victim impact statements were prepared by the direct victim, your granddaughter and her father, your son, and mother and maternal grandmother. I apologise to all of them for calling them victims in these proceedings. That is what the Act says. It seems to me they have, through their own strength, survived the most terrible crimes against each child in their family.
35Each statement is impressive in its own way. The Crown do not suggest that the consequences to the subject of this offending, or indirectly to the extended family, can be seen as an aggravating circumstance, but it reminds the court of the usual and frequent effects of offending such as this, and the - as is reflected in the very significant maximum penalties. I commend each of the victims for their courage in making their statements and the courage that it took to come to court.
Plea
36You were interviewed in October 2020, and you made some admissions. You were not charged until March of 2021, and I am not quite sure why that delay occurred.
37In April 2022, prior to the plea hearing, you were re-arraigned and admitted the charges again. You were given some advice, presumably as to the legal meaning of the term 'penetration' prior to entering the plea. I accept that the plea was indicated and entered at the first available opportunity.
38There was no issue taken with the prosecution opening that, although with the passing of time and some health issues, it is submitted that you cannot fully recall all of the offending. I accept that.
39I accept that an early plea entitles you to a significant sentencing discount consideration. A plea at the commencement of the charging process is important not only to the administration of justice, and can be in some circumstances further evidence of remorse. It also meant that the victims were not required to give evidence. I will refer to this later and indicate the sentence that would have been imposed had it not been for that early plea.
Personal Circumstances
40In relation to your own personal circumstances, there is no dispute that much was contained in the submissions from counsel, and in a psychologist report tendered.
41You are now aged 63 years, having been born overseas in 1958. You came to Australia in your teens. Your upbringing was reportedly marred by significant domestic violence, with both parents having alcohol and drug problems and being violent to each other and their children.
42You report that you were also a victim of sexual abuse at the hands of family friends and relations of your parents. This occurred when you were between six and 12 years of age. While this is noted as part of being a deprived background, there is no suggestion that these events have any causal relationship or connection with your current offending. It may be a consideration and affect your current mental health state.
43You were introduced to alcohol and drugs at an early age by your parents. You still have issues with drugs and alcohol throughout your life. You were educated to Year 10 and managed to get to the equivalent of Year 12 over the years. You have worked in factories and construction over the years, including being a press operator for about 10 years in Australia.
44You had a stroke two years ago and have mobility problems and need a wheelchair to get around. You received assistance through NDIS and lived in supported accommodation and were in receipt of a pension prior to your remand in custody very recently.
45Unsurprisingly, you report that you are socially isolated and that your family members do not contact you. You have no expectation that they should, I perceive. Apart from Michael, you have two other children.
46The prosecution accept that you are now remorseful for your offending. This is evidenced by your plea and your self-report to the psychologist. You say that the offences occurred at a low point in your life. While this might be the case, it certainly is not an excuse and offers you no benefit in mitigation.
47You told the psychologist that you regretted what was happening while it was happening, and that you tried to stop. This fact that you did not desist from the offending for four years, does not assist you. The fact that you desisted voluntarily is of minor assistance. It does not diminish the offending that occurred.
48The victim reports that she was repulsed by your behaviour, and no doubt she was acting out as a result of it. While you ceased your behaviour voluntarily, you did not at any stage accept responsibility personally until the charges were laid. It was ultimately the child who had to go through the process of outing you to your family and the police before you admitted the offences. You report yourself as being ashamed.
Mental Health
49The psychologist report dated March 2022 has been provided to the court. I will paraphrase the contents which are accepted. The psychologist opines that you were suffering from a major depressive disorder and post traumatic stress disorder. She says that you have a low to moderate risk of re-offending but this would be lowered due to your medical limitations.
50In any event, my observation is that the length of time you will spend in custody will significantly diminish any opportunity for re-offending. You will have difficulties in gaol due to your health problems and your severe depression. Your physical limitations in custody will, I am sure, be appropriately managed by corrective services, but they will make your time in custody more onerous than for a person who did not suffer both your physical and mental health limitations.
51You reported that your background suggests that for much of your life you have suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of your deprived, alcohol-fuelled and abusive background. You have a long history of ill health.
Sentence Considerations
52In sentencing submissions, counsel conceded the offending is deserving of condign punishment. Counsel accepts that there will be a sentence of gaol but request that the sentence be moderated due to the early plea, lack of relevant priors, obvious remorse, and physical and health problems.
53In considering these issues, it is acknowledged that you have no similar matters on your record. However, this is of little assistance to you. You were able to commit the offences over such a significant period of time due to the position in the family and, in effect, the trust they placed in your good character.
54Your physical and mental health presentations will create hardship for you in custody. As a result of the stroke you recently suffered, you suffered partial significant paralysis, and prior to going into custody very recently, you resided in supported accommodation. Prior to being sentenced, your mobility was only by way of a motorised wheelchair. You require physical assistance for getting into and out of bed, washing, dressing and toileting.
55You presented in court with an arm in a sling that was recently broken due to a fall, and you need assistance and prompting with respect to that. As a result of your stroke and other issues throughout your life, you have some cognitive difficulties. However, you can verbally communicate well as to your needs.
56I accept that all of those physical and mental health issues that you currently face will make your time in custody significantly more difficult than for a person without such a combination of difficulties. It is in combination that corrective services will have to cope, and in combination with the current COVID restrictions, your time in custody will be more onerous.
57It is submitted by your counsel that gaol will weigh more heavily on you, and I accept that. I will take it into account. Notwithstanding significant information relating to a difficult childhood and background, replete with physical - - -
(NOTE: Contact with offender ceased)
Her Honour Addresses Victims. Offender Not Present.
58There was something that I wanted to say to the so-called victims who are onscreen and in court today that has got nothing to do with the sentence, nothing whatsoever to do with the sentence.
59But I've read your victim impact statements and I notice that - and again, I apologise for calling you victims. People are talking about what the word should be: survivors is a word. I don't know. You choose it yourselves, it's personal to you, not me. But I did note that a number of you had a view that you were sort of somehow looked down upon by other members of the community or you were afraid about what people might think, all those sorts of things.
60Let me put it to you this way: if your entire family was in a minibus and got hit by a drunken driver at an intersection, you wouldn’t feel embarrassed about being a victim of that sort of event, would you? No, not in the slightest. So you ought not feel embarrassed about being the so-called victim of this type of event. You had about as much control over it as you would have at the intersection in the minibus opposite the drunken driver - absolutely none, and you should understand that.
61The other thing that you should understand is that events such as this, sexual abuse of children, didn't used to be spoken about a long time ago. It is good that it's being spoken about now, because people know what really does happen. It happens a lot. For your information, when I was a younger lawyer - and it wasn't really all that long ago - well, it was a fair while ago, but not all that long ago - and I was appearing in the Family Court, a place where you would expect people to know about such things, I can recall presenting a case to a judge about an event not unlike this, and the judge in the Family Court said, 'But, Ms Syme, parents don't do this kind of thing to their children. I don't believe it'.
62Now, it was a little time ago. It wasn't in this State, it was in another State. I would say that Family Court judge is now retired. But that was the community attitude to events such as this. People didn't believe it. People now do, people should.
63Now, have any of you ever heard of Grace Tame? No? You've heard of Grace Tame. You tell them all about Grace Tame, okay? What I would urge you all to do - she was Australian of the Year last year. She was a so-called victim of child sexual assault herself and she came out and told a lot of people not to be ashamed that they were victims.
64I would urge you all to put your Grace Tame hat on and to go boldly into the world. This event could not have been discovered without the entire family getting together and telling each other about it and without this gentleman's son recording that conversation. Everything that everybody did, each of those things, were important in getting you here today. You shouldn't be ashamed of that. You should be proud of it. That's all I have to say. Nothing to do with the sentence. It's my private message to you.
65We'll explain to them why there's another delay. I apologise. I hope you can come back at 12.30. I can't finish it, obviously, without the subject of this event here. I tried not to speak too quickly. I didn't speak quite quickly enough, and I apologise for that. Nothing I can do about it. We'll adjourn now, 12 at the other matter and 12.30 on this matter. I apologise.
66(Short adjournment.)
67HER HONOUR: Thank you for coming back, Mr Penno and Ms MacDougall and everybody else.
68Mr Caulfield, you are back on our screen. I apologise to you, sir, for the break in transmission when you were last before the court. Can you see and hear me all right, sir?
69OFFENDER: I can loud and clear, thank you.
70HER HONOUR: Very good, thank you, sir, and as I said I apologise for that break. I stopped immediately that the break was indicated to me so I will back up very, very slightly in relation to this matter.
71I had been going through your own personal circumstances and the significant information that was available relating to your difficult childhood and background which was replete with physical and psychological abuse.
72It was submitted by the Crown and accepted by the defence that the offending itself was initially opportunistic, but then became entrenched with you, in effect, initially grooming the child for sexual activity, and then insisting that it occur.
73In assessing mitigating factors, the most important mitigating factor is your early plea. It represents a facilitation of the course of justice and is of significant utilitarian value, in the current pandemic situation, but also of considerable value to witnesses who did not have to appear to give evidence. The prosecution has also accepted that you have demonstrated remorse in your record of interview and that you continue to do so.
74You are now aged 63. Your medical conditions are matters that must be taken into account and must moderate the penalty accordingly. Your age, in and of itself, is not sufficient to moderate the penalty, but your physical health condition is significantly compromised and must be taken into account, and it will be reflected in a reduced non-parole period ratio.
75So I am in a position now to announce the sentences. I am going to go through the sentences on each of the individual charges, and then I will indicate which charges - which sentences are accumulated on other sentences, and announce the total sentence as I have calculated.
76I am going to start with count 7, which I will call the base sentence, and that was a charge of incest, for which I impose a sentence of six years imprisonment.
77I will then proceed to count 1, incest, and impose a sentence of three years imprisonment with an accumulation period of 18 months.
78Count 2, incest, representative charge, a sentence of four-and-a-half years imprisonment with an accumulation period of two-and-a-half years.
79Count 3, incest, a sentence of four-and-a-half years imprisonment, with an accumulation period of 18 months.
80Count 4, indecent act in the presence of a child, a sentence of 18 months imprisonment with an accumulation of six months.
81Count 5, incest, a sentence of five years imprisonment, an accumulation of 18 months.
82Count 6, indecent act in the presence of a child, two years imprisonment with an accumulation period of six months.
83Count 7, I have already dealt with as the base sentence of six years.
84And count 8, possession of child pornography, one year imprisonment with an accumulation period of six months.
85That represents a total term of imprisonment, sir, of 14 years and 6 months and I will pronounce a non-parole period of 9 years. The sentence will reflect a pre-sentence detention period of 12 days from 28 April.
86I will say for the record that had it not been for your early plea of guilty, a sentence of 18 years and 6 months would have been the sentence imposed.
87Thank you, sir, for your attention. I apologise again for the delay.
88Anything, Madam Prosecutor?
89MS MacDOUGALL: There was one further matter, Your Honour. I'm not sure whether Your Honour dealt with it on the last occasion. The prosecution seeks an order for forfeiture of disposal.
90HER HONOUR: Of the computer?
91MS MacDOUGALL: Of the computer and screen, yes.
92HER HONOUR: I think perhaps I did deal with that but if I didn't I will confirm that I do.
93MS MacDOUGALL: Thank you, Your Honour.
94HER HONOUR: I will hand down now the notice of reporting obligations pursuant to the Sex Offenders Registration Act. You will be required to comply with these reporting conditions for the period of your life, sir. Those documents will be forwarded to you but they are reporting conditions and residence conditions that are required as part of the registration to details.
95The document which will be forwarded to you will explain that you must report to Victoria police within seven days after you are sentenced or within seven days after you are released from custody. Your position, sir, will be the latter. Those documents will be forwarded to you. Yes.
96MS MacDOUGALL: Your Honour, there are a couple of other matters. In respect of charges 3 and following, having imposed sentence of imprisonment on charges 1 and 2, Your Honour is required to declare that ‑ ‑ ‑
97HER HONOUR: Serious sex offender - I referred to that at the very beginning of my reasons for decision and he will be declared a serious sex offender in relation to those matters.
98MS MacDOUGALL: Finally, Your Honour, in terms of the s 6AAA declaration, is Your Honour minded to also indicate what the non-parole period would have been?
99HER HONOUR: 12 years.
100MS MacDOUGALL: Thank you, Your Honour.
101HER HONOUR: Okay, sir, thank you for returning, we'll turn off that link now. Anything from you, Mr Penno?
102MR PENNO: Nothing further, Your Honour.
103HER HONOUR: Thank you very much. We'll adjourn now.
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