Director of Public Prosecutions v Cassidy
[2020] VCC 1384
•20 August 2020
| IN THE COUNTY COURT OF VICTORIA | Revised Not Restricted Suitable for Publication |
AT MELBOURNE
CRIMINAL JURISDICTION
CR 20-00615
| DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS |
| v |
| DYLAN CASSIDY |
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JUDGE: | HER HONOUR JUDGE GAYNOR |
WHERE HELD: | Melbourne |
DATE OF HEARING: | 20 August 2020 |
DATE OF SENTENCE: | 20 August 2020 |
CASE MAY BE CITED AS: | DPP v Cassidy |
MEDIUM NEUTRAL CITATION: | [2020] VCC 1384 |
REASONS FOR SENTENCE
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APPEARANCES: | Counsel | Solicitors |
| For the Director of Public Prosecutions | Ms R. Harper | Office of Public Prosecutions |
For the Accused | Mr J. Gullaci | Balmer and Associates |
HER HONOUR:
1Dylan Cassidy, you have pleaded guilty before me to two charges of culpable driving causing death, two charges of reckless conduct endangering life, two charges of negligently causing serious injury, one charge of failing to assist after an accident involving a death, one charge of possession of a drug of dependence and have also pleaded to the following related summary charges which were uplifted, pursuant to the provisions of the Criminal Procedure Act. They are committing an indictable offence on bail, unlicensed driving, driving in a manner dangerous, fraudulent use of a number plate.
2The facts underlying this offending are as follows. On 11 August 2019, at about 6 am in the morning, a Holden Commodore was stolen from the home of Donald and Anne Kaldeer in Frankston. Mrs Kaldeer's husband told her about the missing car and she noticed that the backdoor was open and that her handbag was also missing. These actions underlie Charge 1 on the indictment, theft. At 10.29 am, the Commodore was seen at the Mornington Road Bridge travelling south on the Peninsula Link Freeway at Moorooduc. It was travelling at 123 kilometres per hour in a 100 kilometre per hour zone. Mrs Kaldeer later received an infringement notice in the mail, with an alleged speed of 120 kilometres per hour.
3At about 12.30 pm, the Commodore was seen on CCTV, together with a black Honda SUV arriving in the driveway of a factory in Sommerville. You were driving and you had two passengers, they being Byron Hampton and Jordana Dudas-Kirkwood. Jack Ledlin who was later a passenger in your vehicle, was driving the SUV and Dakoda Bidmead was in the front passenger seat of the black SUV.
4All five of you were seen transferring property from the SUV to the boot of the Commodore, the cars remaining in Sommerville for about 45 minutes. You were seen on CCTV replacing the original plates on the Commodore with false registration plates. These actions underlie the summary charge of fraudulent use of a number plate. At about 1.30 pm, a Mr Mark Green was at the Frankston Bombers Football Club, when he heard the Commodore doing burnouts or fishtailing on the gravel and saw the car drive straight past him.
5Between 2.00 and 2.30 pm, Ashley Bull saw two cars charging through the Hastings estate in which she lived, describing the Commodore and the black SUV which he then saw pull into a service station in Hastings. At about 3.30 pm, another witness saw the Commodore in the Karingal shopping centre and she had to take evasive action by slamming on her brakes to avoid being hit by the Commodore, before watching it drive in loops at speed in and out of the car parking bays. These actions by you underlie the summary charge of driving in a manner dangerous.
6At about 4.10 pm, Mrs Cheryl Storer left her home in Lynbrook with her two young daughters aged nine and six in child seats in the back of her car, heading to the Cranbourne shopping centre to buy her daughter Giselle a new lunchbox. They were travelling south on the South Gippsland Highway. At this stage, you were driving the Commodore. Jack Ledlin was seated in the front passenger seat and Jordana Dudas-Kirkwood and Byron Hampton were in the right and centre rear passenger seats respectively. Dakoda Bidmead was in the left passenger seat.
7It is not known to where you were driving, but you were seen by other witnesses turning left from Station Street Cranbourne into the South Gippsland Highway where you drove north. In the 340 metres between Station Street and the collision scene, your car was seen to move off slowly before accelerating rapidly and losing control. The car mounted the centre median strip before becoming airborne and crossing to the wrong side of the road. It landed across the southbound lane and was T-boned by the car being driven by Mrs Storer.
8The Commodore rotated to its resting position on the wrong side of the road, facing in general south easterly direction, in the far right hand southbound lane. The car driven by Mrs Storer came to an immediate stop in the middle of the southbound lanes. Jack Ledlin got out of the car via the front passenger door, was initially aggressive and brandishing a knife, but was overpowered by witnesses and held until police arrived at the scene.
9Ms Dudas-Kirkwood and Mr Hampton were found unconscious in the rear of the Commodore by witnesses. Ms Bidmead was assisted from the car and placed on the road, awaiting paramedics. Mrs Storer was trapped in her car while her two daughters Gisselle and Sharlise were assisted out. Ms Dudas-Kirkwood was pronounced dead at the scene. Your actions in driving in this collision where she died underlie Charge 2 on the indictment of culpable driving.
10Mr Hampton was pronounced deceased as paramedics were in the process of transferring him to hospital. Your actions in causing this collision, in which Mr Hampton died, underlies Charge 3 on the indictment, culpable driving. Mr Ledlin suffered minor injuries. Your conduct in this driving, in which he received those injuries underlie Charge 4 on the indictment, reckless conduct endangering life.
11Ms Bidmead suffered various injuries as a result of the collision. They included a lacerated spleen, a bilateral pulmonary contusion, multiple rib fractures, a minimally displaced external fracture, a small bilateral hemopneumothorax, multiple spinal fractures, right sacrum fractures, bilateral and inferior pubic ramus fractures, that is pelvic fractures, fractures to her leg bones and a complete anterior cruciate ligament and medial collateral ligament tear of the left knee. She also underwent traumatic cardiac arrest and underwent multiple surgeries. Your actions in relation to her underlie Charge 5, negligently causing serious injury.
12Sharon Storer suffered injuries, including right wrist injuries with multiple fractures, seatbelt injuries with abrasions and bruising to the breasts, hip and shoulder, causing constant pain which is ongoing. She underwent corrective surgery for the fractures during which a permanent plate was inserted. This injury is unlikely to fully resolve. Your actions in relation to Ms Storer underlie Charge 6 on the indictment, negligently causing serious injury. Charlize Storer sustained a broken collar bone and post-traumatic stress disorder which on the psychological material, it seems may take years to resolve. Your actions in relation to Charlize Storer underlie Charge 7 on the indictment, negligently causing serious injury. Giselle Storer suffered injuries including a non-displaced skull fracture, concussion and a persistent nosebleed from the left nostril and bruising. Your actions in relation to Giselle Storer underlie Charge 8 on the indictment, reckless conduct endangering life.
13Immediately after the collision, you got out of the Commodore through the driver's window and began to run from the scene. Then you returned and removed a white satchel bag from the front driver's side before fleeing on foot along Camms Road. You did not render any assistance to any of the injured or the deceased. A witness took a video of you which clearly shows you carrying the bag as you left the scene. Those actions underlie Charge 9 on the indictment, fail to assist after an accident involving death.
14A number of witnesses pursued you down Camms Road. You were seen to discard items from the satchel outside a house at 118 Camms Road, before crossing that road and discarding further items outside 171 Camms Road. Those items were small amounts of substances, later found to be methylamphetamine. Your actions in possessing this drug underlie Charge 10 on the indictment, possessing a drug of dependence. A liquid was also found being GBH, which underlies Charge 11 on the indictment, possessing a drug of dependence. You were overpowered and apprehended by the civilian witnesses and police arrived soon after and you were taken to the Dandenong Hospital under police guard.
15The Commodore had major irreparable damage to the driver's side, resulting from the collision and the Captiva had major frontal damage.
16Police collision reconstructionists were of the opinion that the car you were driving was travelling at a minimum of 102 kilometres per hour when you steered right and applied emergency braking, causing the tyre to lock and the car then skidded while rotating as it crossed the northbound lanes of the South Gippsland Highway, across the grass centre median and onto the southbound lanes of the South Gippsland Highway. Your car was still rotating when it collided with Mrs Storer's car. Mrs Storer's car was travelling at about 72 kilometres per hour when she applied emergency braking, before colliding with the Commodore.
17Doctor Sanjiv Gaya considered a toxicological report in relation to testing on you and it was his opinion that your driving ability was impaired by the use of methylamphetamine or ice at the time of the collision. You were also found to have ingested cannabis. It was his view that the cannabis would have compounded the deleterious effect of the methylamphetamine and most importantly, it was Dr Gaya's view that you would have been incapable of having proper control of a motor vehicle.
18You were unlicensed at the time of the collision. You have never held a licence. Your actions of driving without a licence underlie the summary charge of unlicensed driving. On 30 April 2019, you were placed on bail for offending committed on 24 February 2019 and your actions in offending on this day underlie the summary charge of committing an indictable offence whilst on bail. You participated in a record of interview with police on 14 August 2019, but declined to answer any questions.
19The maximum penalty for theft is 10 years imprisonment. The maximum penalty for culpable driving is 20 years imprisonment. The maximum penalty for reckless conduct endangering life is 10 years imprisonment. The maximum penalty for negligently causing serious injury is 10 years imprisonment. The maximum penalty for failing to assist after an accident involving a death is five years imprisonment. The maximum penalty for possession of a drug of dependence is one year imprisonment. The maximum penalty of fraudulent use of a numberplate is two months imprisonment. The maximum penalty for dangerous driving is two months imprisonment. The maximum penalty for unlicensed driving is 60 penalty units or six months imprisonment. The maximum penalty for committing an indictable offence on bail is three months imprisonment.
20The matter proceeded by way of listing in the committal stream at the Magistrates' Court. The matter was settled on 29 April 2020, where a plea of guilty was entered and a plea listed in the County Court for 30 July 2020 and it is conceded by the prosecution, this was an early plea of guilty.
21I now turn to the victim impact statements. I receive three victim impact statements. One from Sharon Storer, one from Nicole Hampton, the mother of Byron Hampton and one from Renee Hampton, Byron Hampton's aunt. The victim impact statements were deeply moving and made for difficult reading and difficult listening, those statements having been read out to the court during the plea hearing.
22Mrs Storer noted that her daughter Charlize has been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder. This has had an enormous effect upon her. She was previously an active, outgoing little girl, who now feels only comfortable at home. Her injuries and psychological condition have affected her schooling. She in fact saw one of the deceased hanging from a window of the window at the scene. She still has nightmares about this. There are temper outbursts. She has, it would seem, completely changed from the happy child that she was previously and these difficulties are ongoing.
23She had a broken collarbone and severe bruising. Her sister Giselle had a fractured skull and concussion, which meant she was unable to play for three months. This caused enormous frustration for her and generally speaking, Ms Storer outlined that this was an active close family that loved to go out to socialise and to go camping, which is now completely restricted in its activities.
24Mrs Storer had to take four months off work. Because of the injuries to her coccyx, she cannot sit for more than 40 minutes. She cannot type for more than 40 minutes. She finds it agonising to write with a pen. She cannot lift anything weighing more than two kilograms. She will possibly only retain 60 to 80 per cent of her pre-accident wrist capacity. She is an office worker, so that these injuries have a devastating effect upon her employment capacity. Mrs Storer can no longer swim. She cannot ride a bike. She suffers from enormous anxiety, especially in relation to her children. She suffers great anxiety travelling in a car. She has now become isolated and anxious.
25Her descriptions in her victim impact statement of being trapped in the car, of hearing her children screaming for her while they were taken to an ambulance were extremely moving and it is quite clear that she and her daughters suffered an appalling tragedy on this day, the effects of which are still with them and are likely to be with them for a very long time.
26Nicole Hampton, in her victim impact statement wrote that Byron was the eldest of her four children. He had just finished his TAFE course, he was about to start his electrical apprenticeship. She described him as a very tall, gentle boy, beloved by his youngest siblings, all of whom along with Mrs Hampton, are clearly devastated by his death. Renee Hampton spoke of her great love for her nephew, the enormous grief that she feels at his loss, and the effect this has had on her own children and family and it was quite clear from both victim impact statements that this terrible grief understandably is ongoing. Mrs Hampton is particularly traumatised by the thoughts that her son died alone and that she was not with him, as she said, when he needed her most. The victim impact statements of Nicole and Renee Hampton were in my view, remarkably moving statements and in the circumstances, quite restrained.
27I now turn to your personal circumstances. You are 20 years old and in fact turned 20 just two days before this offending. You had a difficult and very disrupted upbringing. You are the youngest of three children born to your parents, who separated when you were two, at which time your mother was gaoled.
28Your mother has struggled with drug use and related offending all her life and has been regularly imprisoned. She was recently released from custody. You were then raised by your father's parents, however, they separated when you were 12 and your mother was released from gaol and you went to live with her. This was disastrous for you, as she quickly relapsed into heroin use, spent time with other users and began reoffending to finance her habit. You had no boundaries and were essentially left to fend for yourself. You spent your time rotating between her house, your father and grandparents' houses and you told psychologist, Patrick Newton, whose report was tendered on the plea, that you would leave wherever you were living, whenever you were disciplined or limits placed on you.
29Eventually you lived with your father and his long term partner Kristen and her three children. Your father worked as a sandblaster and has been the more stable and supportive parent. He, Kristen, your sister Kayla and brother Dylan continue to support you. Kayla is in a stable relationship with four children and Dylan lives with your mother's parents and works with your father. However, you began using cannabis at age 12, then ecstasy at 13 and on your 14th birthday you were introduced to ice, quickly becoming addicted to it and have remained addicted ever since.
30You also drank alcohol heavily from the ages 13 to 16, but then drank less, only because your drug use increased. At age 15, you stole some jewellery from Kristen which you sold to buy drugs and left your father's house. You moved in with your girlfriend Georgia and her mother, then with an aunt, then for six to twelve months, lived with your father who you thought may have temporarily separated from Kristen, in order to give you a home.
31He went back to live with Kristen and you ended up again living with Georgia and her mother for three years, until December 2018. You then lived with a friend of your mother's until March 2019, when you were remanded in custody for other offending. You were released on bail on 2 March 2019 and went back to live with your father and Kristen. You underwent drug detoxification through YSAS and then rehabilitation at Werribee, but were ejected from there for drug use.
32Your father was not prepared to have you back, so you returned to Georgia's and completely relapsed into ice use and offending. Your counsel Mr Gullaci told me that you smoked about half a gram of ice a day, an expensive and heavy habit. In the time leading up to this offending, you became what Mr Gullaci described as a one-man crime spree. You still face 42 charges to be resolved in the Magistrates' Court stream, having offered to plead guilty to 24 charges including burglary, thefts, motor vehicle theft, multiple charges of unlicensed driving, offending whilst on bail, obtaining property by deception and theft from motor vehicle, offences which were committed in July and August 2019, several of them, as we have heard on 11 August, the day of this offending. Most of that offending was to support your drug habit.
33On 4 December 2019, you were sentenced to four months imprisonment, on charges of aggravated burglary, theft of a motor vehicle and possession of ice and cannabis and unlicensed driving, offending which pre-dated the offending before this court and the outstanding charges.
34You had previously appeared in the Frankston Children's Court on 21 May 2015, when you were placed on a good behaviour bond on charges of theft, obtaining property by deception, obtaining financial advantage by deception, dealing with the proceeds of crime and intentionally damaging property. On 28 February, you were sentenced to 44 days Youth Training Centre and placed on probation by the same court, for handling stolen goods, motor vehicle theft, aggravated burglary, possession of ice and possession of a controlled weapon.
35You were expelled from school in Year 10 after many years of disruptive behaviour, including truanting, violence and physical aggression. You have never been in any stable paid employment. The relationship with your girlfriend Georgia has ended. You have done fairly well in custody, undertaking several courses, including a drug course, an occupational health and safety course but were moved to another gaol and lost your certificates.
36You have been subjected to a number of random urine screens, all of which have been negative for drug use. You have worked in the gaol, cleaning chairs and making nuts and bolts, although due to the COVID restrictions, this is limited now to about four hours a week. The pandemic restrictions have affected you, in that you no longer receive personal visits and you are yet to be approved for video calls. All courses have been suspended and you are released from your cell for only two hours a day.
37Your counsel told me it is your aim to live with your father on your release on parole, obtain any work you can, do some courses, remain drug and alcohol free and get your driver's licence. You told Mr Newton you could remember little of the car crash and the aftermath because you were so drug effected. He believed the most important factor in your offending was the influence of drugs, the effects of which you knew well from years of use. He diagnosed you as suffering from severe substance abuse disorder.
38Although you have been prescribed medicine in the past for anxiety and depression, you are not taking it in gaol. Mr Newton said that you did not present as suffering from either condition in custody. Mr Newton said gaol had forced you to come off drugs. He said you presented as a very immature man for your age, with little insight into your drug use and no idea about concepts such as harm minimisation or relapse prevention, which means steps you can take to make sure you do not fall back into drug use again.
39Mr Newton did find it positive that you do want to stay off drugs, but essentially said you did not have much idea about how to do this beyond sheer will power. Concerningly, he found you had poor social reasoning. That is, you make dangerous risky decisions and in fact, enjoy the excitement of risky behaviour. This was made worse by your drug use and he believed you were showing signs of developing an antisocial personality disorder.
40Overall Mr Newton said that without proper drug and psychological treatment, your prospects of rehabilitation, that is your chances of staying off drugs and out of criminal trouble were not good. Mr Newton's report will be forwarded to Corrections and I make the comment that its contents are important in determining your handling in gaol and appropriate support programs when you are released on parole.
41The prosecutor, Ms Harper, submitted this was extremely serious offending given the speed and manner of your driving and the fact that you ran from the scene. Furthermore ,you are unlicensed and had never held a licence. She submitted these features meant your offending was at the high end of the range of serious scale of seriousness for culpable driving. I agree with this submission.
42The footage of your driving leading up to the fatal collision is disturbing, to say the least. The expert evidence is that you were so affected by drugs as to be incapable of having proper control of the car. In the end you careered widely out of control, ended up on the wrong side of the road so that Mrs Storer with her two little girls in the back was incapable of avoiding your vehicle. There was a real chance, in my view, of even more death and even more serious injury possible resulting. This was truly terrible, dangerous offending.
43As it was, among your passengers two young people died and a third was terribly injured. Two families have been left bereft and forever grieving. Even though she did not make a victim impact statement, the injuries suffered by Ms Bidmead were horrendous and it can be safely assumed in my view that her suffering and the effects of those injuries will be ongoing and debilitating. Mrs Storer was seriously injured both physically and emotionally, her daughter Charlize also seriously injured and both girls are terribly traumatised to this day.
44The seriousness of this offending means that principles of just punishment and denunciation of your conduct are relevant in the sentencing exercise. This means that I must impose a sentence which involves proper punishment and a clear statement that this was truly terrible offending by you. While I accept that to some extent your flight may have been induced by panic and your drug affected state, those facts themselves demonstrate how unfit you were to drive at all.
45Only gaol has interrupted your entrenched drug use and on the evidence it is impossible to say whether this situation will continue once you are released. Add to this that your difficult, dysfunctional upbringing has unsurprisingly resulted in an emerging antisocial personality disorder and it cannot be said your prospects of rehabilitation are any more than guarded at best. That means I also have to take into account protection of the community, in particular other road users. You had been on an ice-fuelled offending spree for weeks before 11 August 11, including stealing cars and driving them. The 24 outstanding charges you are pleading to include two charges of car theft and three charges of unlicensed driving.
46Taking into account also your driving earlier on that day on 11 August, you clearly have no regard to road rules designed to protect other drivers, passengers and pedestrians. Mr Gullaci correctly pointed out on your behalf that I must take into account your youth so that rehabilitation has a bigger role to play in sentencing you than with a more mature offender. However, he also correctly conceded that rehabilitation has less importance in cases of very serious offending such as this.
47He submitted that by your early plea of guilty you had demonstrated remorse, saved your victims the trauma of giving evidence and the community the time and expense of a trial. That is so, but the case against you was very strong and while you did express remorse to Mr Newton in my view it did not demonstrate any real understanding of how serious and appalling your offending was. While I also take into account the good progress you have made in custody and the fact that you want to take off drugs and stop offending, that lack of understanding means specific deterrence is also relevant to the sentencing exercise. This basically means I must sentence you in a way which is a lesson to you.
48Mr Gullaci also correctly submitted that totality is a significant issue in this case. In other words, because of your young age, it is important I do not sentence you to a crushing term of imprisonment that would rob you of any real chance of future reform. However, I must also balance this with a need to impose a sentence that reflects the seriousness of your offending.
49General deterrence is also another important principle in this case. That is I must impose a sentence which makes it clear to other road users that if they behave as you did they can only expect severe punishment. In sentencing you I must also take into account your very difficult background, which plays into your overall moral culpability. But again this must be limited in the face of the awful damage you caused to multiple people. In the end, despite your age and the difficulties in your life, I find your moral culpability to be high.
50The offending on this day was preceded by continuous drug-use offending and multiple instances of unlicensed driving. I do accept that you have law-abiding responsible family members who will support you whilst you are in custody and once you are released and note that this is a protective factor.
51I have also regard to the difficult conditions in gaol because of the pandemic restrictions depriving you of the programs, work, education, treatment and exercise, which are particularly important for young offenders.
52Finally I must take into account that the standard sentencing for culpable driving is eight years' imprisonment. That is based on offending which is found to be in the mid-range of seriousness having regard only to the objective factors affecting the seriousness of the case. The authorities make it clear it is to be regarded as one of a host of factors to be taken into account in arriving at an appropriate sentence. However, as I have said multiple times in these sentencing remarks, this was absolutely appalling, incredibly dangerous offending.
53You have permanently affected the lives of your victims. You have caused two deaths. You have caused serious injuries to two little girls. You have caused immense distress to the families of those young people who died. You have caused damage to Mrs Storer personally and on top of which she has to deal with the ongoing effects of post-traumatic stress disorder to two previously happy, much-loved little girls. It was not conceded that there was any way to deal with this offending other than a term of imprisonment and I propose to sentence you in that way now.
54I make the comment before passing sentence that none of the terms of imprisonment I impose in any way represent a sort of value on the life of, for example, Byron Hampton or on the continuing injuries as suffered by Mrs Storer and her daughter Charlize and Giselle. Sentencing is not designed to somehow place a value on human lives or injuries suffered. This is a sentence which is imposed with my having regard, as I must, to all of the various factors I have outlined, which are both punitive and mitigatory.
55I therefore sentence you now as follows. On Charge 1, theft of motor vehicle, you are sentenced to 12 months' imprisonment. On Charge 2, culpable driving, you are sentenced to eight years' imprisonment. On Charge 3, culpable driving, you are sentenced to eight years' imprisonment. On Charge 4, reckless conduct endangering life, you are sentenced to three years' imprisonment. On Charge 4, negligently causing serious injury, you are sentenced to five years' imprisonment. On Charge 6, negligently causing serious injury, you are sentenced to five years' imprisonment. On Charge 7, negligently causing serious injury, you are sentenced to five years' imprisonment. On Charge 8, reckless conduct endangering life, you are sentenced to four years' imprisonment. On Charge 9, failing to assist after an accident involving death, 18 months' imprisonment. On Charge 10, possess a drug of dependence, you are sentenced to two months' imprisonment. On Charge 11, possessing a drug of dependence, you are sentenced to two months' imprisonment.
56On the summary charge of committing indictable offence on bail you are sentenced to one month's imprisonment. Summary charge of unlicensed driving, you are sentenced to two months' imprisonment. On the summary charge of driving in a manner dangerous you are sentenced to two months' imprisonment. Summary charge, fraudulent use of a number plate, you are sentenced to one month's imprisonment.
57The base sentence will be the sentence imposed on Charge - excuse me, I apologise - will be the sentence imposed on Charge 3, eight years. I order that one month of the sentence imposed on Charge 1, 12 months of the sentence imposed on Charge 2, three months of the sentence imposed on Charge 4, six months of each of the sentences imposed on Charges 5, 6, 7 and 8 and one month of the sentence imposed on Charge 9 be served cumulatively to the sentence imposed on Charge 3. This gives a total effective sentence of 11 years and five months and I order that you serve a minimum of eight years before becoming eligible for parole.
58Pursuant to s.6AAA I declare that had you not pleaded guilty I would have sentenced you to a term of 12 years and six months' imprisonment with a minimum term of nine years and three months.
59Now, Ms Harper, you were wanting - sorry, you were seeking an order in relation to the drugs were a cause of this offending, is that correct?
60MS HARPER: That's correct, Your Honour.
61HER HONOUR: Yes, I do make that order. I make the forfeiture and disposal orders. I also cancel any licences by Mr Cassidy (indistinct) but he is now disqualified from obtaining any licence for a period - just excuse me, I apologise. He's disqualified from obtaining further licence before a period of three years. This might not seem much, but my concern is, if he is going to reform, he is going to need his licence.
62Now that disqualification Ms Harper, should run from the time he leaves gaol. Is that right?
63MS HARPER: That was my submission, Your Honour, yes.
64HER HONOUR: Is there any way I can (indistinct) so (indistinct) overlaps, that some of it (indistinct) whilst he's still in custody and some of it takes place - it operates while he's in the community?
65MS HARPER: I don't (indistinct) sorry, Your Honour.
66HER HONOUR: I can hardly hear you, Ms Harper.
67MS HARPER: I don't think it's possible ‑ ‑ ‑
68HER HONOUR: No, I can't ‑ ‑ ‑
69MS HARPER: (indistinct words). Can Your Honour hear me now?
70HER HONOUR: Yes, I can hear you now. I'm just thinking. Mr Gullaci, have you got anything that you want to say?
71MR GULLACI: Your Honour, I must confess I've found the last few minutes quite difficult to hear and a little bit difficult to hear exactly what's being said.
72HER HONOUR: I'm sorry, Mr Gullaci. Can you hear me now?
73MR GULLACI: Yes. It's just the part about the licence. That's the only thing that I've just heard.
74HER HONOUR: He is disqualified from obtaining a licence for a period of three years.
75MR GULLACI: Yes.
76HER HONOUR: My concern is that he is the sort of person, if he's going to reform, who is going to need his licence. He's got at least eight years in gaol, he's going to be considerably older when he leaves custody. The submission of the prosecution is that the operational period of the disqualification would start when he leaves custody, but I'm just concerned about that.
77MR GULLACI: Your Honour, look, I agree with the assessment that Your Honour's made. His prospects of rehabilitation of course are entirely linked to his staying off drugs, but, in terms of trying to get a job and work, having a licence at some point in the relative near future once he's released is going to be important. So if there is an ability to start part of it, and I appreciate it would only be part ‑ ‑ ‑
78HER HONOUR: Currently there's not. That's a question that I was asking.
79MR GULLACI: I must say to you I'm not specifically aware of a power that gives you that ability.
80HER HONOUR: No. Look, in the circumstances, Ms Harper, and this has nothing to do with any favours being done to Mr Cassidy, I'm disinclined to grant that request. The real punishment here is the time that he will serve in gaol. You know, if he's not going to reform, the fact that he has got a licence or hasn't got a licence is clearly on past performance not going to stop this man. My concern is that he does get a licence, that legally driving, having employment are important factors, he'll still be a relatively young man when he leaves gaol, in reform and that is better protection of the community. So the three years will not run from the date of release.
81MS HARPER: As Your Honour pleases.
82HER HONOUR: Thank you. Is there anything else that I need to deal with?
83MS HARPER: The pre-sentence detention, Your Honour, is 255 days.
84HER HONOUR: Could you say that again, please.
85MS HARPER: Two-five-five excluding today.
86HER HONOUR: Two hundred and fifty-five, is that correct?
87MS HARPER: That's correct, yes.
88HER HONOUR: Yes. All right, I declare that 255 days of this sentence have already been served by way of pre-sentence detention.
89MS HARPER: May it please the court.
90HER HONOUR: Yes. Is there nothing more that I need to do?
91COUNSEL: No, Your Honour.
92HER HONOUR: Thank you very much. I will stand down. Do we have something at 2 o'clock, Jim?
93TIPSTAFF: 2 o'clock, Your Honour
94HER HONOUR: Yes, we'll stand down till 2 o'clock. Thank you. I thank counsel for their assistance. Thank you.
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