Director of Public Prosecutions v Arale

[2018] VCC 1520

IN THE COUNTY COURT OF VICTORIA Revised
Not Restricted
Suitable for Publication

AT MELBOURNE
CRIMINAL JURISDICTION

CR 17-00869
CR-17-00870
CR-17-01839
CR-17-02485

DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS

v

ABDUWALI ARALE
MANOA TAWAKE
SALIM MOHAMED

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JUDGE:	HIS HONOUR JUDGE MEREDITH
WHERE HELD:	Melbourne
DATE OF HEARING:
DATE OF SENTENCE:	25 May 2018
CASE MAY BE CITED AS:	DPP v Arale & Ors
MEDIUM NEUTRAL CITATION:	[2018] VCC 1520

REASONS FOR SENTENCE
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Subject:  Armed robbery and cause injury.
Catchwords:
Legislation Cited:
Cases Cited:
Sentence:

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APPEARANCES:	Counsel	Solicitors
For the Director of Public Prosecutions	Mr Y. Hardjabirata (trial) Ms H. Bate (plea) Ms W. Wang (sentence)	Office of Public Prosecutions
For Accused Arale	Mr M. Pena-Rees	Armour Legal
For Accused Tawake	Mr B. Newton	Stary Norton Halphen
For Accused Mohamed	Mr M. Man	Matthew White

HIS HONOUR:

1Abduwali Arale, Salim Mohamed and Manoa Tawake, your matters were listed for trial before me on 5 February 2018.  On this day, Mr Tawake, I was advised that your matter had resolved, and accordingly a new plea indictment filed. 

2You entered pleas of guilty to one charge of armed robbery and one charge of recklessly causing injury to Mr Khalid Jelle on 8 December 2016.  This was in relation to the matter listed before me for trial.

3In addition, on another indictment you pleaded guilty to charges of robbery and recklessly causing injury on 3 December 2016, wherein the victim was a Mr Leek.  Given that the matter fixed for trial had been resolved, your matter was adjourned to a further hearing date.

4Mr Abduwali Arale and Mr Salim Mohamed, you both stood your trial on charges of armed robbery, intentionally causing injury, and in the alternative, recklessly causing injury.  Your victim was Mr Khalid Jelle, and the conduct occurred on 8 December 2016.

5On 14 February, the jury in your matters returned verdicts of guilty of both of you for the charges of armed robbery and intentionally causing injury.  The relevant maximum penalties for the offences that each of you has either been found guilty of or pleaded guilty to are:  armed robbery, 25 years' imprisonment; robbery 15 years; intentionally causing injury ten years, and; recklessly causing injury, five years' imprisonment.

6In addition, you Mr Arale have pleaded guilty to related Summary Offences 7 and 8, of failing to comply with a direction concerning a data storage device, namely a mobile phone, and possessing prohibited weapons, namely two hunting knives.  These offences have maximum penalties of two years' imprisonment.

7So far as your offending of 8 December 2016 is concerned, your victim Mr Khalid Jelle had attended a flat in Ascot Vale around 9 am.  He was granted admission by an unknown African male and shown into the lounge room.  Shortly after his arrival in the lounge, he made it known to both of you, Mr Arale and Mr Mohamed, that he was in possession of $500.  In fact he had $600 on him. 

8The unidentified African male who allowed him to enter the flat was also made aware of Mr Jelle having cash on his person.  This male left the premises a short time later.

9Shortly after this, both you Mr Arale and Mr Mohamed left the room and attended either the toilet or the bathroom together.  On your return, you Mr Mohamed were holding a handgun, and you Mr Arale were standing close by Mr Mohamed.  A demand was made for Mr Jelle's money, and you Mr Arale said words to the effect of "Give him the fucking money, he's crazy, he'll shoot you".

10Mr Jelle declined to hand over his funds, and at about this time the unidentified African male returned to the flat, along with you, Mr Tawake. 

11I should say at this juncture that your counsel, Mr Mohamed, argued that I could not be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that you used a handgun in the fashion that I have just outlined.  She argued that there were material inconsistencies of Mr Jelle's versions of who had the weapon, and that I ought have a reasonable doubt concerning this.

12Having had the benefit of seeing and hearing all of the witness evidence in this case, I am satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that you produced the handgun as I have described.

13Returning to the narrative, Mr Jelle and the four of you were in the lounge room.  You, Mr Arale, made a comment referencing Mr Jelle being a snitch.  I accept on the basis of the committal evidence that I was referred to by your counsel, Mr Tawake, that shortly after your arrival you were told words to the effect that Mr Jelle had on a previous occasion robbed others of their money.  I accept that this utterance occurred prior to your interactions with Mr Jelle.

14Mr Jelle describes you, Mr Tawake, as appearing aggressive from the outset.  However, I accept that whilst this is his perception, I cannot find that this occurred prior to the utterances that I have referenced.  It also follows that I cannot find that you were party to any of the activities occurring prior to your arrival at the flat.

15What then occurred can only be described as a terrifying ordeal for your victim, Mr Jelle, who was outnumbered.  He was struck and fell toward the lounge room floor.  Variously he was punched, kicked, stabbed and pistol whipped, while efforts were made to remove his money from his front pocket.

16At one stage he was dragged into the bathroom area, where all of you were crowding around him.  He was stabbed in the leg area whilst in the bathroom, and stabbed on other occasions in the lounge room.  At one stage he was able to break free, and got as far as a window that he intended jumping through.  He was restrained, and his attempt at escape foiled.  The fact that Mr Jelle was prepared to jump through the window illustrates the depths of his fear and desperation, which he spoke of in his evidence.

17Throughout his ordeal, Mr Jelle was refusing to give over the money in question, keeping one hand in his front pocket and fending blows off with the other.  Also at some stages of the incident he had his shirt pulled up over his eyes, and at times had to try to remove this.  In short, he describes blows raining down on him, including being struck to the back of the head or neck area with what I accept was the firearm in question.  I cannot however be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt who it was that did this. 

18In the ensuing events, Mr Jelle was stabbed in the leg several times by you, Mr Tawake, as well as being struck on a number of occasions by unidentified others.  Ultimately Mr Jelle relinquished his money and the violence being perpetrated on him ceased.  In addition to the money, other items reflected in the charge were taken from him.

19Mr Mohamed, you obtained $600 from Mr Jelle and divided it amongst the four participants in the armed robbery of him.  $100 was returned to him, and he was told not to go to the police.  You, Mr Tawake and the unidentified African male left a short time later.  Both of you, Mr Arale and Mr Mohamed, remained, and in summary told your victim not to go to the police, and declined to give him his passport back until such time that you were satisfied that he hadn't gone to the police.

20Mr Arale and Mr Mohamed, after consuming cannabis you both then left the flat together in a taxi.  You told Mr Jelle to remain in the flat for ten minutes before he left.  Prior to you both leaving, you had directed a Caucasian male, who was not involved in the joint armed robbery and assaults of Mr Jelle, to clean up the blood in the flat, and later police attendance at the flat is consistent with the clean-up having occurred.

21Mr Jelle left the flat a short time after both you, Mr Arale, and you, Mr Mohamed.  Mr Jelle made his way to a nearby friend's residence, and when police and ambulance attended, was seen to be in a bad way.  He was hospitalised for some three days, and received treatment consequent upon him being stabbed a number of times, as well as beaten during the various endeavours to relieve him of his money.

22Having heard Mr Jelle give evidence in the trial, I am satisfied that you Mr Tawake produced a knife and stabbed him a number of times during the incident, and you Mr Mohamed produced the firearm.  I accept that you two have adopted a more culpable role than you, Mr Arale.

23Having said that, you were all participants in a joint criminal enterprise to rob Mr Jelle.  This involved you using force and weapons as necessary to achieve your shared purpose.  Whilst it is appropriate to differentiate your respective roles, sight cannot be lost of the fact that you were all acting together to achieve your united purpose.  In addition, as a result of a negotiated settlement of your matter, Mr Tawake, for your role in the assaults perpetrated on Mr Jelle, you face the lesser charge of recklessly causing injury.  This is notwithstanding the fact that I am satisfied that you stabbed him multiple times.

24Given that the violence metered out to your victim stopped after his money had been appropriated, and appears to have been directed toward achieving this end, in order to avoid doubly-punishing each of you, I will moderate the sentences I impose on each of you for your respective charges of intentionally and recklessly causing injury to him.

25I have had regard to the victim impact statement of Mr Jelle.  In it Mr Jelle speaks of the ongoing and significant impacts of your offending.  Amongst other things, he references his anxiety and fear. 

26The seriousness with which the crime of armed robbery is regarded is reflected in Parliament prescribing the comparatively high maximum penalty of 25 years' imprisonment for it.  Higher courts have been saying for years that general deterrence and the court's denunciation of this type of offending must feature prominently in the sentences to be imposed.

27Your joint offending in this matter was callous, brutal and somewhat prolonged.  Notwithstanding that it was evolving rather than planned, it represents a reasonably serious example of offending.  Your victim suffered cuts and bruising to his head and face, and other parts of his body.  Stab wounds to the upper left rear of his thigh, his right thigh and lower left calf.  In addition, three discs near his neck were displaced.

28In addition to this offending, you Mr Tawake have also pleaded guilty to your involvement in a robbery and the recklessly causing of injury on 3 December 2016.  An agreed summary of the circumstances relating to this was filed, and will remain on the court file, and having regard to this I will summarise them somewhat more briefly.

29This offending occurred in company, and your liability is based upon you participating in a joint criminal enterprise with your co-offender.  This offending involved the robbery of your victim of cash in the vicinity of $130, his mobile phone, headphones and jewellery, in a flat in the Ascot Vale area. 

30During this, your co-offender filmed you assaulting your victim by kicking him to the body and face.  In addition, your victim was hit over the head with a bong after having its water poured over him, as well as a beer.  Self-evidently, this is also a relatively serious example of its type of offending.  Some of the assaults perpetrated on this victim occurred prior to the appropriation of his property, and to avoid doubly-punishing you, I will moderate the sentence I impose on you for the offence of recklessly causing injury to reflect these assaults as in effect forming part of the robbery.

31Ultimately, others arrived at the flat in question and broke up this incident.  The appropriation of your victim's property constitutes the offence of robbery, and the cumulative assaults and consequent injury to your victim constitute the offence of recklessly causing injury.  Your victim having suffered cuts and bleeding to his head, bruising and swelling to his face, a cut lip and soreness to his wrist.

32When you were interviewed over this matter, you declined to make any comment.  Given your pleas of guilty, Mr Tawake, I will appropriately reduce the sentences that I otherwise would have imposed on you. 

33So far as the offences of 8 December are concerned, notwithstanding the fact that your pleas occurred late in the piece, on the day your matter was listed for trial, they have still facilitated the course of justice.  Your guilty pleas meant that the prosecution did not have to prove the charges referrable to you in front of a jury, and did reduce the time the trial occupied.

34Your pleas to your offending of 3 December occurred at an earlier time than those that I have already referenced.  You offered to plead guilty to these offences before undertaking a contested committal in that matter.  It was not until that the prosecution were prepared to accept this.  Similarly they have facilitated the course of justice.  In addition, your pleas evidence some remorse on your part.

35In regard to each of you, I have had regard to the important sentencing principle of parity.  This rests on the principle of equal justice, which requires that like should be treated as like, and that the difference in treatment of different persons should be rational.  Different sentences may reflect differences in culpability or personal circumstances in offenders.

36In reaching the sentences which I impose, I have had regard to your respective roles, personal matters as they have been made known to me, and the different charges which you face.

37Mr Tawake, your co-offender on the 3 December matters was a 15-year-old who was dealt with in the Children's Court.  Whilst I will have regard to this sentence, it must be noted that he is much younger than you, and was sentenced under a different regime where general deterrence plays no part, as opposed to my sentencing of you.

38So far as you are concerned, Mr Arale, you are now 23 years of age.  You have a number of relevant prior convictions.  These include offences of affray, intentionally cause injury, armed robbery and others.  The most significant sentence that you have previously received was one of 11 months' imprisonment to be followed by a community corrections order of 12 months' duration.  Much of your background is contained in the report of Jeffrey Cummins, psychologist.

39It is apparent that you have a background of some disadvantage, and I have taken this into account.  In summary, your parents separated when you were a baby.  You fled the conflict in Somalia with your mother and siblings.  This involved time in refugee camps, and ultimately time in New Zealand from when you were around eight years of age, until migrating to Melbourne in or around 2010.

40You have six siblings, three sisters and three brothers, and I am told that none of these, including your mother, have been in any trouble.  They remain supportive of you, and you have received visits during your period of remand. 

41You have had a disrupted formal education, and have attained a Year 10 level pass in New Zealand.  Your work history is sporadic.  You have abused alcohol and drugs from an early age, and told Mr Cummins that you think drugs are 80 per cent of the reason that you are in prison.  You have been in a relationship for some years, and I am told your girlfriend remains supportive of you, and has visited you during your remand.  She has no relevant criminal history, and your family and girlfriend appear pro-social and supportive of you.

42You stated to Mr Cummins that you are remorseful, and no one deserves to be treated like your victim, and you regret your part in the offending.  I will have regard to this.

43In addition, Mr Cummins describes you as immature, and you report you are easily led.  Mr Cummins states that your prospects for long-term rehabilitation appear guarded.  Notwithstanding this, I will seek to appropriately maximise them by in your case fixing a non-parole period which will enable a substantial period for your reintegration into the community should you be granted parole.

44Comparatively speaking, you are still young, have some support, and this will represent your first significant term of imprisonment.  In addition, you have voluntarily undertaken some education whilst on remand.  I note the contents of the references of your older brother, Mr Abdisamaad Warsame, your sister Ms Hibak Mohamed, as well as Mr Farah of the Somali Council of Victoria.

45In this regard, Mr Farah sets forth the assistance which will be provided to you, including mentoring, cognitive behavioural therapy, and your proposed attendance on your Imam.

46Given your New Zealand citizenship, I accept that you are apprehensive that you may be deported as a result of your offending in the context of you having made a life for yourself in Australia.  In addition, you have no longer any social connection in New Zealand.  I have taken your concern regarding this into account, however I am not able, on the basis of the material before me, to assess the likelihood or otherwise of this eventuating as a matter of fact.

47I do accept that the burden of imprisonment is greater for you, knowing that following your release you are liable to be deported.  You are fearful that you will lose the opportunity of settling permanently in Australia, and I take this into account as a form of additional punishment.

48In addition, a part of your remand has been served in circumstances more onerous than usual, given the lockdown of you that occurred consequent upon a fire at Port Phillip Prison, and I have had regard to this.

49Mr Mohamed, you are 30 years of age.  You have relevant prior convictions, including for armed robbery, recklessly cause injury, assault and other matters.  The longest previous sentence imposed on you was one of 500 days, and then your release on a community corrections order of 12 month's duration.

50The offending on which I must sentence you occurred during the currency of this order.  You had been out of custody but a short time when you reoffended, and had only shortly commenced the community corrections order.  Specific deterrence needs to be adequately emphasised in my sentencing of you.  I have had regard to the sentencing comments of Gucciardo J of this court of 23 November 2016 regarding the imposition of the community corrections order, and of his resentencing of you on 3 December 2017, where 611 days of presentence detention were declared, and a total effective sentence of three years and one month, and a non-parole period of two years, was fixed.

51The parties were agreed that your non-parole period is now expired, and I am not required to fix a new non-parole period referrable to this earlier sentence.  Given that you are currently undergoing this sentence, I will have regard to the total criminality of all of your offending in arriving at a sentence which is just in all the circumstances of your case.

52Tendered on the hearing of your plea were neuropsychological assessment reports of Ms Susan Carey of the 7th and 10 May 2018.  These place you as scoring a low IQ when tested, however are not capable of evidencing an intellectual disability in your case.  Due to factors such as English not being your first language, variance across the domains tested resulting in higher scores for tasks not so reliant upon English language skills, as well as your limited education history, your cultural background and your level of adaptive functioning within the community.

53Nonetheless, you appear challenged at a number of levels, and I have had regard to this in a general sense.  Ms Carey notes your previous diagnosis with post-traumatic stress disorder, as identified in a report of Mr Steven Gault of 12 November 2016.  This does not appear to have a sufficient nexus to your offending to warrant a reduction in your sentence under the operation of Verdins case.  I have however had regard to this also in a general sense.

54Yours is a background of adversity, dysfunction and disadvantage at a number of levels.  Much of your background is contained within the reports of Mr Gault and Ms Carey.  In summary, you are the middle of five siblings, and were supported in court by family members.  Your other family members have achieved well, variously undertaking the roles of nurse, social worker and paramedic.  Notwithstanding your legal difficulties, your family remains supportive of you.

55In summary, you had limited contact with your father until approximately the age of ten.  He was lost to you and your family in the civil war in Somalia.  You fled this country, living as a refugee with family members variously in Kenya, Ethiopia and later Dubai.  You witnessed considerable violence, were without a father figure, and your education was interrupted.  Ultimately you attended Year 10 studies, however did not pass on your return to Australia.

56From Dubai, you immigrated to Australia in 2002.  You left Australia and spent time in Egypt, Ethiopia and Somalia.  You met your wife overseas and currently have three children to her, two having been born overseas.

57In or about 2010, you returned to Australia and participated in the workforce for some time.  Your relationship with your wife broke down in 2013 or 2014, and this precipitated a downward spiral involving the abuse of stimulant drugs, alcohol and other drugs.  This contextualises your offending.  Your children are now aged nine, eight and four, and you have received visits from them in custody, and I am told are motivated to play a positive role in their lives.  You are hopeful of a reconciliation, and I am told there is some prospect of this.

58You are medicated for facial pain as a result of what I was told was an assault of you involving an axe.  In addition, you experienced difficulties in prison and currently have a more onerous regime of custody, given restrictions that operate on you.

59I note in this regard however the content of a report indicating that there are avenues available that may ease the limitations placed upon you.

60Regarding your rehabilitative prospects at this time, I can only be cautiously optimistic concerning them.

61Mr Tawake, you are 31 years of age and have admitted relevant prior convictions for offending including assault, affray, armed robbery and other matters.  You received a sentence of three years with a non-parole period of 18 months in December of 2011, and this represents your longest previous sentence.

62You have received numerous community-based dispositions previously, and appear to have breached many of these.  Much of your background is contained in the reports tendered by your counsel on the plea hearing.  These reports include those of 2007 of Bernard Healey and Lester Walton, another Walton report of 2011, a 2016 report of Ms Calandro, and a report of April of this year of Dr Zimmerman. 

63You also have a background of disadvantage.  In summary, you immigrated to Australia from Fiji when you were around 13 years of age, and were reunited with your father, who had arrived in this country earlier with your stepmother.  Your father and natural mother separated when you were approximately three.  You are the youngest of three boys, and have two stepsisters.  Your eldest brother drowned when you were young.

64Your father left for Australia after this, and you were raised by your grandparents and worked on their farm.  In Australia you struggled at school and were expelled at Year 9 level.  You did not have a happy home environment, and this added to your feelings of alienation.  You report family members having relocated back to Fiji, and that you feel lonely and abandoned in Australia.

65I accept that you are apprehensive that you may be deported as a result of your offending in the context of you having made a life for yourself in Australia.  However, it seems that family have now left this country.  I have taken your concern regarding this into account, however like Mr Arale, I am not able on the basis of the material before me to assess the likelihood or otherwise of this occurring as a matter of fact.  I do accept that the burden of imprisonment is greater for you, knowing that following your release, you are liable to be deported.  You are fearful that you will lose the opportunity of settling permanently in Australia, and I do take this into account as a form of additional punishment.

66In addition, part of your period on remand has been served in circumstances more onerous than usual, given the lockdown of you that occurred consequent upon a fire at Port Phillip Prison, and I have had regard to this.

67You have a history of treatment for a drug-induced psychosis and schizophrenia at an early age, and have been the subject of depo medication.  You self-report a contradictory history of drug abuse from an early age.

68In addition, you were assessed with a low IQ, and have been previously assessed as suitable for assistance from intellectual disability services.  The report of Dr Zimmerman contains some extraordinary assertions attributed to you.

69You have a documented history of mental illness and drug abuse.  You instructed your counsel that you were compliant with antipsychotic medication at the time of your offending, however he submitted that you were un-medicated.  You appear to have an entrenched history of stimulant drug abuse, and you have a poor history of compliance with antipsychotic medication and drug treatment.

70You exhibit a low level of insight into your various difficulties, and Dr Zimmerman states that you will require very assertive community management.  He opines that you have a major psychotic disorder with a prominent effective component.  He concurs that schizophrenia is the most likely diagnosis, and you suffer from a chronic relapsing and remitting illness.

71Whilst your difficulties invite a degree of compassion, they also lead to an increased need for community protection to be reflected in my sentencing of you.  I will have appropriate regard to Dr Zimmerman's conclusions, and whilst your counsel conceded, appropriately in my view, that the state of the evidence relating to your condition at the time of your offending was such that a nexus could not be drawn between your illness and your offending.  I will have regard to it in a general sense, and I am also of the view that for you prison is more burdensome, given that you suffer from a major psychotic disorder.

72In your case, I will forward Dr Zimmerman's report to the Parole Board to enable them to more fully assess whether or not you will ultimately be eligible for release on parole.  It is a matter for your practitioners whether they forward this report to prison authorities.

73In regard to each of you, the differing sentences that I impose reflect differences in your culpability and personal circumstances.  In reaching the sentences which I impose, factors such as your lesser role, Mr Arale, and relative youth, as well as each of your respective prior histories, my findings concerning your rehabilitative prospects, matters personal to you, your plea of guilty Mr Tawake, and other relevant matters, have all led to the differing sentences that I will impose.

74Balancing all matters then, Mr Arale would you stand please?  On the charge of armed robbery, I sentence you to four years and six months' imprisonment.  On the charge of intentionally causing injury, two years' imprisonment.  On related Summary Offence 7, I fine you $250, and on related Summary Offence 8, $1,000.

75In your case, I will declare that the sentence I have imposed on Charge 1 is to be the base sentence.  That makes a total effective sentence for you of four years and six months' imprisonment, and I will fix a non-parole period of two years and three months, and that is in addition to the fines that I have announced.  My understanding is that the pre-sentence detention in your matter is 528 days, but I would ask counsel to check that.  Have a seat sir.

76Mr Mohamed, would you stand?  On the charge of armed robbery I sentence you to five years' imprisonment.  On the charge of intentionally causing injury, three years' imprisonment.  The sentence I have imposed on Charge 1 is to be the base sentence.  In your case, that makes a total effective sentence of five years' imprisonment, and I fix a non-parole period of three years.  This sentence is to be served concurrently with the sentence that you are currently undergoing.  My understanding is in your case the pre-sentence detention declaration is 89 days, but I would ask counsel to check that.  Have a seat sir.

77Mr Tawake, would you stand please?  On the charge of robbery, I sentence you to two years' imprisonment.  On the charge of recklessly causing injury consequent upon that offending, 18 months' imprisonment.  On the charge of armed robbery, I sentence you to four years' imprisonment.  On the charge of recklessly causing injury consequent upon that, two years' imprisonment.

78I will declare that the sentence I have imposed on the charge of armed robbery of four years is to be the base sentence, and I will cumulate on that one year of the sentence I have imposed for the charge of robbery, and three months of the sentence I have imposed for the charge of recklessly causing injury consequent upon that robbery.

79In your case, that makes a total effective sentence of five years and three months' imprisonment, and I will fix a non-parole period of three years and three months' imprisonment.  My understanding is the presentence detention in your matter is 520 days, but I will ask that that be confirmed. 

80I will indicate that but for your pleas of guilty, I would have imposed total effective sentences of six years and three months' imprisonment and fixed a non-parole period of four years and six months' imprisonment.  Have a seat sir.

81Now, were there ancillary orders that were sought to be made?

82MS WANG:  Yes Your Honour, disposal orders.

83HIS HONOUR:  All right.

84MS WANG:  (Indistinct) on the last occasion.

85HIS HONOUR:  Yes, all right, well I will make those in chambers.  Anything further?

86MR NEWTON:  Your Honour, in respect of the PSD for Mr Tawake, it is agreed at 521.

87HIS HONOUR:  Yes.

88MS WANG:  I understand the PSD in relation to Mr Arale is calculated at 529 days, Your Honour.

89HIS HONOUR:  All right, I will make that declaration, unless there is anything you want to say, Mr Pina-Rees?

90MR PINA-REES:  No Your Honour.

91HIS HONOUR:  All right, how about you?

92MR MAN:  No Your Honour, we agree with the PSD.

93HIS HONOUR:  All right, 89 days for the other gentleman.

94MR MAN:  If the court pleases.

95HIS HONOUR:  Nothing further?

96COUNSEL:  No Your Honour.

97HIS HONOUR:  Thank you, you can remove the prisoners please.  All right, I will stand down until 11 o'clock, thanks.

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