Director of Public Prosecutions v Aldcroft
[2019] VCC 1697
•18 October 2019
| IN THE COUNTY COURT OF VICTORIA AT MELBOURNE CRIMINAL DIVISION | Revised Not Restricted Suitable for Publication |
Case No. CR-19-01127
| DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS |
| v |
| RUSSELL ALDCROFT |
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JUDGE: | HER HONOUR JUDGE PULLEN | |
WHERE HELD: | Melbourne | |
DATE OF HEARING: | 10 October 2019 | |
DATE OF SENTENCE: | 18 October 2019 | |
CASE MAY BE CITED AS: | DPP v Aldcroft | |
MEDIUM NEUTRAL CITATION: | [2019] VCC 1697 | |
REASONS FOR SENTENCE
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APPEARANCES: | Counsel | Solicitors |
| For the DPP | Ms S. Renwick | Solicitor for the Office of Public Prosecutions |
| For the Offender | Ms E. Byrt | Papa Hughes Lawyers |
HER HONOUR:
1 Russell Aldcroft, you have pleaded guilty to one charge of armed robbery, the maximum penalty is 25 years’ imprisonment.
2
You have also agreed, pursuant to s.145 of the Criminal Procedure Act 2009 to me hearing and sentencing you on a summary charge; specifically,
Charge 3, commit an indictable offence whilst on bail. Two further summary charges of assault with a weapon, Charge 2, and Charge 5 were withdrawn. The penalty for committing an indictable offence whilst on bail is 30 penalty units or 3 months’ imprisonment.
3 Your offending arose out of events which took place on 6 March 2019. It is not necessary for me to recount in great detail the facts of this matter, as the matter was opened in some detail by the learned prosecutor consistent with Exhibit A. I proceed to sentence you on the basis of the facts as summarised by the prosecutor and discussed during the course of your plea hearing. It is sufficient for present purposes simply to say the facts in this case are most serious and disturbing.
4 I turn then to a summary of your offending. You are at sentence 26 years of age.
5 The victims of your offending, Valentina Dimovska ('Dimovska') and Larissa Sinnott ('Sinnott'), are loss prevention officers.
6 On 6 March 2019, you attended Kmart at Keilor Central Shopping Centre. At approximately 10.15 am, you visited the men’s active wear section, then the sports section, accessories section, men’s wear section and shoe section.
7 You selected various items from those sections, trying some on, before putting them into a Kmart trolley. You ripped the tags off some of the items.
8 You then moved to the garden and shed section of Kmart, bent down and ripped more tags off the clothing, folded the clothes and placed them into a black bag you were carrying over your shoulder.
9 You took off your shoes and replaced them with boots you had selected from the men’s shoe section, placing your own shoes into the black bag. You also clipped a red cap onto the strap of the black bag.
10 You gathered together a few more pieces of clothing from the trolley and held them against your body. When a few people entered the garden and shed section of Kmart you moved to the next aisle.
11 You were then in the process of getting more items from the trolley and putting them into the black bag, when you made eye contact with Dimovska.
12 You left Kmart without making any attempt to pay for the clothing in the black bag.
13 Shortly after exiting the store, you were confronted by the victims along with a security guard. The victims identified themselves as loss prevention officers.
14 You handed the black bag to Sinnott, then put your hand into your right pocket and said you had a syringe and HIV. You kicked off the boots you had stolen and pulled out a syringe (Sinnott). I note there is no evidence before me that the syringe was filled with blood and I do not speculate. The victims backed away.
15 You looked at Sinnott who was still holding the black bag and yelled, “I want my bag. Give it to me or I'll stab you.” You pulled the cap off the syringe and lunged towards Sinnott, yelling, “Give me the fucking bag.”
16 Sinnott dropped the bag and you picked it up before running off.
17 You got onto a bus and took a seat near the front. In response to a triple zero call by the victims, police located the bus and tried to identify you through the windows. You moved to the back of the bus before getting off, leaving the black bag behind.
18 The bag was retrieved by police and found to contain a number of clothing items (see paragraph 18).
19 At the scene of your arrest that day, Sergeant Jayden Clinch asked you what had happened. You said you needed clothes. You were taken to Keilor Police Station and a record of interview was conducted.
20 During that interview, you gave a largely “no comment” interview, which of course was your right, otherwise stated, “What can I say? I fucked up.”
21 At the time of this offending, you were on bail and you have also pleaded guilty to a summary charge of committing an indictable offence whilst on bail, to which I have previously referred.
22 Turning to the aggravating features of your offending, there was some pre-planning, albeit of short duration, within the store, and you did have a syringe with you, although I note your instructions that you had just left the squat in which you had most recently being staying, and were heading towards your drug dealer’s place of residence, thus the syringe. There is not any material before me to suggest your having the syringe was otherwise.
23 You have been in custody for this offending since your arrest on 6 March 2019 and up to and including 9 October 2019, you had spent - that is the plea hearing - 218 days, at that time, in custody by way of pre‑sentence detention.
24
The prosecution accept, as do I, your pleas of guilty to these two charges was indicated at a committal case conference in the Magistrates’ Court on
5 June 2019.
25 You have pleaded guilty to these charges and you are entitled to have that fact taken into account in your favour and I do so. The community has, by your pleas of guilty, been spared the time and cost of a trial and witnesses have been spared the need to give evidence upon your trial. Your pleas have utilitarian value.
26 Further, I take into account in your favour you intimated early your intention to plead guilty to these charges following being charged with them, although I note the stolen items located in your black bag. The stage at which you indicated your intention to plead guilty and the fact of your pleas of guilty are relevant in mitigation of sentence.
27 I am prepared to accept that your pleas of guilty indicate some remorse for your offending, although am concerned about the extent of your remorse given your prior criminal history in particular for dishonesty offences. You are not unfamiliar with court.
28 You have a number of prior court appearances which you have admitted, commencing on 24 September 2013 for criminal damage. Without conviction, the matter was adjourned to 24 March 2014.
29 You next appeared at Sunshine Magistrates’ Court on 26 September 2017 on charges of criminal damage, unlawful assault and shop steal and were convicted and fined an aggregate $1,000.
30 You next appeared at Melbourne Magistrates’ Court on 10 January 2018 on dishonesty offences, receiving stolen goods, committing an indictable offence whilst on bail and unlawful assault. On each charge you were convicted and the matter was adjourned for 12 months, until 20 December 2018.
31 You next appeared at Sunshine Magistrates’ Court on 21 November 2018; four charges of theft from a shop, two of theft, four of committing an indictable offence whilst on bail and four charges of unlawful assault. You were placed on a Community Correction Order for a period of 15 months with a number of conditions attached.
32 Your offending before me on 6 March 2019 occurred during the operation of that Community Correction Order, you having been placed on that Order approximately 3 and half months earlier (in November).
33 You are not being dealt with by me, i.e. not being sentenced by me for breach of that Community Corrections Order. However, it is an aggravating feature of your offending that you did offend while subject to that Court Order.
34 Further your breach of that Order has some relevance given your counsel’s urging I impose a term of imprisonment together with another Community Corrections Order. Given that submission in order for me to assess that submission I require information regarding the breach. I stress not for the purposes of sentencing for the breach and I shall turn to this Breach Report shortly. That matter will be determined, I was told, on 14 October 2019 and I do not know what has happened in the interim.
35 Returning to your criminal record your most recent prior court appearance was at Sunshine Magistrates’ Court, 30 November 2018, on charges of handle, receive and retention of stolen goods and you were convicted and fined $500.
36 Ms Byrt acknowledged you had a prior criminal history and pointed to a period between 2013 and 2017, where you appeared to have had some stability in your life and a lack of court appearances during that period of time.
37
Regarding committing an indictable offence whilst on bail, you were on bail at the time of this offending for offending (including offences involving dishonesty) involving a number of informants. And I was given copies of summaries and charges relevant to that offending and was told these matters were currently listed for pleas of guilty in the Magistrates’ Court on
14 October 2019.
38 EXHIBIT 3 - Summaries.
39 That offending involved three charges of theft, obtaining property by deception, unlawful assault, committing an indictable offence whilst on bail and breach of the Community Corrections Order to which I have previously referred.
40 There are no victim impact statements before me.
41 Your counsel, Ms Byrt, prepared a written outline of submissions for your plea hearing (Exhibit 1) and addressed them during the course of it.
42 You were born in Queensland and by age 7 had lived in Queensland, New South Wales, Western Australia then returning to New South Wales.
43 You grew up exposed to significant domestic violence. Your parents also abused drugs and alcohol although I was told they had not used drugs for the past 10 years. I note your parents were in court to support you at your plea hearing.
44 When you were 7 years of age you were removed from your parents and placed into foster care. You then ran away then returned again to your parents’ home, however, after a year they sent you back to foster care. You described feeling abandoned.
45 You were returned to state care and placed in a group home, then into Acmena Youth Justice Centre as there was nowhere else for you to live.
46 Your schooling was not surprisingly disrupted as a result of those moves. You described attending approximately 10 primary schools throughout New South Wales and Western Australia and five different high schools in New South Wales whilst in State care.
47 After completing Year 9 in New South Wales, you ran away from your foster family and went to Victoria to live with your parents who enrolled you in high school and you were in Year 10 for six months.
48 After you left school, you worked in a factory in Laverton as a pick packer for two years before obtaining employment laying turf, a job you held for two years.
49 You returned to factory work for a further year then became unemployed.
50 You met your ex-partner when in high school and had your first child with her when you were 20 years of age. You have three children together; Brian, 5 years old; Beth, 3 years old; and Bernice, 8 months old.
51 You were a stay-at-home father for one year to Brian.
52 At the age of 22 you began using heroin. You were forced to leave the family home after a fight with your father and were then homeless for four months, sleeping rough and couch surfing. Since then you struggled with homelessness and addiction to heroin and at the time of this offending you were homeless, sleeping rough in squats in Sunshine or couch surfing. You had also been again asked to leave the family home as a result of your relapse into heroin use.
53 You have said you are aware that it is your drug use that leads you to offend, in combination with being homeless. You have not, however, undertaken any courses to date to address your drug use, concentrating, as I understood it, most recently upon your employment within the prison. Ms Byrt submitted your drug use masked a deeper issue for you by reference to your disadvantaged background. It will ultimately be up to you to address this.
54 Ms Byrt conceded relevant sentencing considerations in your case included general and specific deterrence, and denunciation.
55 She urged, however, your offending was not premeditated or sophisticated, that you panicked, that your offending occurring as a spontaneous response upon being stopped when leaving the store. You did not attempt to disguise yourself or otherwise avoid identification. The incident was brief in duration.
56 Ms Byrt submitted your background of emotional hardship, dysfunction and disadvantage should be given weight in mitigation of sentence and relied upon the principles in Bugmy v R[1] as relevant given your deprived childhood. I accept some mitigation in sentence is appropriate.
[1](1990) 169 CLR 525.
57 Ms Byrt also submitted that at 26 years of age, principles regarding youthful offenders in R v Mills[2] applied in a moderated capacity. I agree, moderated given your prior criminal history in particular. Rehabilitation, she urged, was a sentencing consideration.
[2](1998) 4 VR 235 (‘Mills’).
58 I accept your rehabilitation is a consideration however you do have an extensive criminal history that concerns me.
59 I am aware of Mills’ case and the importance of rehabilitation of young offenders. The application of Mills’ case however is not of automatic or usual application.
60 Each case depends on the circumstances, including the circumstances of the offending as well as the offender (see DPP v Lawrence[3]).
[3][2004] 10 VR 125.
61 In R v Connolly[4], Coldrey J referred to the principles in Mills and stated:
'No doubt a sentencing court will endeavour to implement these principles as far as is possible in sentencing a youthful offender but they are not to be regarded as immutable. In the context of the variety of fact situations and offenders with which courts have to deal, such factors as the seriousness of the offence or offences committed (and the just punishment therefore); the need for deterrence (specific and general); the offender's prospects of rehabilitation; and the need to protect the community may need to be reflected in the sentence imposed.'
[4][2004] VSCA 24.
62 In R v Tran[5] at 462, Callaway JA said:
'The rehabilitation of youthful offenders, where practicable, is one of the great objectives of the criminal law, but it is not its only objective. It is not difficult to cite cases where other objectives have had to prevail. It is true that, in the case of a youthful offender, rehabilitation is usually far more important than general deterrence, but the word I have italicised.[usually] is there to remind us that there are cases where just punishment, general deterrence or other sentencing objectives are at least equally important.'
[5](2002) 4 VR 457.
63 You have a disturbing and relevant criminal history relevant to dishonesty, although I note no prior offending for armed robbery. You do have prior court appearances involving committing offences whilst on bail (to which I have previously referred).
64 In custody you have been using your time usefully working in 'nuts and bolts'. You had also, I was told, been abstinent from drug use in custody.
65 It was submitted you now had strong family support, your family visit weekly and you had stable accommodation with your parents in West Melton upon your eventual release.
66 Ms Byrt referred to the early resolution of this matter and proceeding by way of straight hand-up brief. I have already referred to your pleas of guilty at the earliest opportunity and accept your pleas reflect some remorse for your offending.
67 Your counsel was not relying upon the principles in R v Verdins & Ors[6] and that, in my opinion, was an appropriate concession on the material before me.
[6](2007) 16 VR 269.
68 Turning to disposition, Ms Byrt submitted your offending behaviour and all matters relevant to sentence called for an appropriate punishment balanced with your traumatic childhood experience and young age. She urged the imposition of a combination disposition of a term of imprisonment with a Community Corrections Order with programs specifically related to drug abuse.
69
I was given a copy of a breach report for the hearing currently listed for
14 October 2019. You were placed on that Order on 21 November 2018 and inducted into it on 23 November 2018. Just six days after 21 November 2018 you offended in relation to the offences referred to in that Breach Report, committed on 27 November 2018, and dealt with on 30 November 2018. That offending involved handle/receive and dispose of stolen goods. You were, at that time convicted and fined $500. I was told that offending involved baby formula.
70 Given Ms Byrt’s sentencing submission, I discussed with her the concerning aspects of your non-compliance with the Community Corrections Order, including two unacceptable absences from fortnightly supervision, and your failure to complete three urine-analysis tests, conceded by Ms Byrt to be as a result of your continued use of drugs and the likely detection of that should you complete the testing. In addition, I note you failed to attend with your general practitioner for a mental-health assessment, despite numerous requests being made of you by Corrections.
71 In the Community Corrections Breach Report, you were assessed as a high risk of general re-offending.
72 Your counsel, Ms Byrt, urged that despite your non-compliance with that Community Corrections Order, your time most recently in custody had been a wake-up call to you. You had used your visits with your parents in custody to reconnect with them which, Ms Byrt submitted, would assist your homelessness and hopefully not return to heroin, or other illicit substances.
73 That, of course, remains to be seen. You are currently in a prison environment where, while drugs are available, they will be more readily available when you are back in the community. You need to address abstinence through counselling. If not, I have no doubt you are going to be back before the courts, charged with further offending and you will keep going back to gaol.
74 The prosecution provided written submissions relevant to sentence (Exhibit B) and submitted a combination sentence of imprisonment with a Community Corrections Order was within the range of appropriate dispositions.
75 The prosecution referred to relevant sentencing considerations, in your case, being just punishment, specific deterrence, general deterrence, rehabilitation, denunciation of conduct and protection of the community.
76 I was taken to a sentencing snapshot for armed robbery dated 28 June 2018. Whilst I accept the information contained therein is of some assistance, it is limited as it does not provide detail specifically regarding individual offenders or the gravity of the offending in any particular case.
77 Regarding your rehabilitation prospects, I have concerns given your repeated offending evidenced by various court appearances since 2013 and recently your breaching of a previous Community Corrections Order.
78 As well as matters personal to you to which I have referred, including your prospects of rehabilitation as I find them to be, I must also take into account the need for general deterrence when sentencing, which is of considerable importance in a case such as this.
79 There is also the need for specific deterrence when sentencing you and whilst I note that you do not have any prior offending for armed robbery or robbery for that matter, you do, however, have a number of priors for dishonesty offences. I am concerned your current offending reflects an escalation in your offending behaviour.
80 I must also consider the question of the protection of members of the community from you and bear in mind the likelihood of your re-offending. This concerns me and until you address your drug use in the community and for an extended period of time with the assistance of counselling, I remain concerned about the need to protect the community from you.
81 I am called upon by the Sentencing Act to manifest the community’s denunciation of your conduct and generally to impose a just punishment.
82 As I have said your counsel urged that I have you assessed for a Community Correction Order as part of the sentence I impose for your offending that is before me. I agreed to have you assessed for another such order, mindful that you did not complete the last one, lasting approximately three and a half months on that order.
83 I received a report from Ms Zdravkovic. The author assessed you as suitable for a Community Corrections Order with a number of conditions specifically community work and that s.48CA Sentencing Act 1991 could apply crediting treatment and rehabilitation as community work. Also supervision, drug assessment and treatment, mental health treatment, offender behaviour programs, and judicial monitoring were recommended.
84
All right, I have determined that rather than imposing a head sentence with a
non-parole period, it is appropriate I impose a term of imprisonment together with a Community Corrections Order.
85 So stand up for the minute and just listen carefully. And, counsel, I keep dabbing these eyes because of hay fever, which is driving me mad. I am not in tears, so do not panic.
86 So, now, this is what I am proposing by way of sentence. You have got to listen carefully, all right?
87 On Charge 1 on the Indictment and Summary Charge 3, I intend to convict you and sentence you to an aggregate term of 15 months’ imprisonment. And I intend to declare, in a minute, that you have spent 226 days, I need to check that, in custody by way of pre-sentence detention, that is up to and including yesterday. And then following release from custody you will then be subject to a Community Correction Order for a period of two years.
88 Now, I will explain all that in a bit more detail in a minute.
89 Before you consent to this order, however, I need to tell you a bit about a Community Corrections Order, so you know what it means. And I know that you have already been on one of these orders and you have breached it monumentally, in my opinion, and if you come back before me you are going to go a real risk of gaol. But I have to tell you what it means. So it is a judicial, judge's description that you have got to listen carefully to and consent or otherwise to it later on.
90 The following Core conditions apply to all Community Correction Orders and also to you:
·You must not commit, whether in or outside Victoria, during the period of the order, which is two years, an offence punishable by imprisonment.
·You must report to and receive visits from the Secretary to the Department of Justice, or his or her nominee, during the period of the order, i.e. two years.
·You must report to the Community Correction Centre at Melton within two clear days following your release from gaol.
·You must notify the Secretary, or his or her nominee, of any change of address or employment within two clear working days after that change.
·You must not leave Victoria except with the permission of the Secretary to the Department of Justice, or his or her nominee. No holidaying without permission outside Victoria.
·You must comply with any direction given by the Secretary that is necessary for the Secretary to give to ensure you comply with the order.
91 Now, I propose a number of other conditions would be attached to this Order that apply to you:
· I would be directing that you perform 200 hours of unpaid community work over a period of 18 months. Yes, I know, it is a two year Order but over 18 months the work has to be completed as directed by the Regional Manager (s.48C and s.48CA Sentencing Act 1991 applied).
· You must be under the supervision of a Community Corrections Officer for a period of two years.
·You are required to be supervised, monitored and managed as directed by the Secretary, or his or her nominee (s.48E).
· You must undergo assessment and treatment (including testing) for drug abuse or dependency as directed by the Regional Manager (s.48D(3)(a)).
· You must undergo mental health assessment and treatment including (but not limited to) mental health, psychological, neuropsychological and psychiatric treatment in a hospital or residential facility as directed by the Regional Manager (s.48D(3)(e)).
· You must undergo programs or courses aimed at addressing factors relating to the offending as directed by the regional manager, and I specifically refer to the Offenders Behaviour Program (see s.48D(3)(f)).
· You must attend for review of your progress and compliance or otherwise with conditions of the order by coming back before me on
20 July 2020 at 9.30am (s.48K).
92 So I can only impose a Community Corrections Order if you consent, and I need to tell you even more about it, so keep listening.
93 If you contravene or breach that Order by committing further offences you can be charged and a sentence of imprisonment is one of the options that can be imposed for that breach (s.83A(d)).
94 You can also be re-sentenced for the offences that are before me and you will be. One of the options available includes a further term of imprisonment (s.83A(s)).
95 Now that means you have got to be extra careful for two years after your release. No committing any further offences that might incur a term of imprisonment, otherwise you are back before me, not some other judge, and you will be re-sentenced on these two charges. So you have to be extra careful.
96 I have to also tell you that if you fail to comply with any direction of the Secretary to the Department of Justice, that is a Community Corrections Officer, worker or a like, or as part of this order, a substantial fine can also be imposed (s.83A(e) and A(f)).
97 Now, I will just explain in a little bit more detail before I ask if you consent or not.
98 Basically as I have said, it would be on Charge 1 and Charge 3, so that is Charge 1 on the Indictment, Summary Charge 3, an aggregate of 15 months' imprisonment. I would then be declaring 226 days up to and including yesterday by way of pre-sentence detention. That means that after today you would have approximately, and I have not calculated it to the day, between about seven and a half to eight months to still serve. Then you would be on a Community Corrections Order after that seven and a half to eight months. I have done the maths on the exact date. But after that period of time you would then, after you have done another seven and a half to eight months, give or take. You would then be subject to this Community Corrections Order for two years after that date. I hope that is making sense to you.
99 OFFENDER: Yes.
100 HER HONOUR: And so you have just got to be - so that is why I have set a July 2020 date, because you should be out, if all goes according to plan, in about seven and a half months from now, which makes it about May next year. So you would be out and about for two months before you come back to me.
101 OFFENDER: Yeah.
102 HER HONOUR: They are sort of rough figures. Did you follow those, Ms Byrt? Is that a nod for a yes?
103 MS BYRT: Yes, Your Honour.
104 HER HONOUR: So you are going to be able to explain it?
105 MS BYRT: Yes, Your Honour.
106 HER HONOUR: Right, now, so before I formerly pronounce the sentence did you want to speak to your barrister about anything that you are not clear about?
107 OFFENDER: No, thanks.
108 HER HONOUR: Cause I can only impose one of these Orders if you agree and you have to be, in particular, aware that if you breach it, such as you have in the Magistrates' Court, and you come back before me I have to re-sentence you and it will be more gaol time.
109 OFFENDER: Yeah.
110 HER HONOUR: You follow that?
111 OFFENDER: Yes.
112 HER HONOUR: You really understand that?
113 OFFENDER: Yes.
114 HER HONOUR: You know, you cannot judge shop; you are stuck with me.
115 OFFENDER: Yep, I understand.
116 HER HONOUR: Yes, well, listen carefully and in a loud voice, because what we will do is just do you consent to the Community Corrections Order on the terms that I have just described, all of them, every one of them?
117 OFFENDER: Yes, I do.
118 HER HONOUR: Being aware of what will happen if you breach this order?
119 OFFENDER: Yes.
120 HER HONOUR: See, what happens is, this is recorded so if you breach it and come back we just play that last little bit. Very quick hearing, you see.
121 OFFENDER: Yep, I understand.
122 HER HONOUR: Well, I hope you do. So, I have got to repeat it yet again. Not all of it though.
123 So I formally sentence you as follows:
124 On Charge 1 on the Indictment and on Summary Charge 3 you are convicted and sentenced to an aggregate term of 15 months’ imprisonment.
125 I declare you have spent 226 days in custody, up to and including yesterday, 17 October 2019, by way of pre-sentence detention. So following release from custody in approximately seven and a half to eight months you will then be subject to a Community Corrections Order for a period of two years, which will commence upon your release from custody.
126 Pursuant to s.18(4) Sentencing Act 1991, I declare you have spent 226 days in custody up to and including yesterday, as I have said, 17 October 2019, by way of pre‑sentence detention and I direct that be entered into the records of the court.
127 Pursuant to s.6AAA Sentencing Act 1991, had you pleaded not guilty to these charges and been found guilty of them, I would have sentenced you to a term of imprisonment of 5 years' gaol with a non-parole period of 3 years.
128 No orders were sought by the prosecution.
129 As I have said, that means that you are going to be required to serve approximately, I stress, I have not done the maths, seven and a half to eight months from (from today) in prison, then subject to a Community Correction Order.
130 Have a seat. Now is that all clear to counsel? You are quite sure you understand that?
131 MS BYRT: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
132 MS RENWICK: Yes, Your Honour.
133 HER HONOUR: All right, well - all right. Now, the usual paperwork is coming out, Ms Byrt. You can go back and show him where to sign. I would ask you - I do not know what has happened with the Magistrates' Court in wherever you are going back to, but just if you could make it abundantly clear to Mr Aldcroft the risk he runs coming back to this court if he breaches it.
134 MS BYRT: Yes, Your Honour.
135 HER HONOUR: I think the exceptional circumstances test probably applies on a breach, I am not sure. But I cannot think of too many at the moment. I am not sure what the test is anymore for breach. But that is in the future, maybe, hopefully never. Are you doing both pages? Yes.
136 All right, coming back. You can go and chat to him if you want to but you will have to have a conference downstairs. But just point out what is in on the document.
137 MS BYRT: Thank you, Your Honour.
138 HER HONOUR: You can do the rest later. All right, Ms Byrt, you will have to save it up, all right? Anything else? All signed. Yes, excellent. All right.
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