Director of Public Prosecutions v Abou-Eid

[2021] VCC 2106

IN THE COUNTY COURT OF VICTORIA

Revised

Not Restricted

Suitable for Publication

AT MELBOURNE

CRIMINAL JURISDICTION

CR 21-00258

DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS

v

AHMED ABOU-EID

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JUDGE:	HIS HONOUR JUDGE SMITH
WHERE HELD:	Melbourne
DATE OF HEARING:
DATE OF SENTENCE:	16 December 2021
CASE MAY BE CITED AS:	DPP v Abou-Eid
MEDIUM NEUTRAL CITATION:	[2021] VCC 2106

REASONS FOR SENTENCE

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Subject:

Catchwords:

Legislation Cited:

Cases Cited:

Sentence:

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APPEARANCES:	Counsel	Solicitors
For the Director of Public Prosecutions	Mr S. Lee
For the Accused	Mr M. Ayache

HIS HONOUR: 

1Mr Ahmed Abou-Eid, you have pleaded guilty to 16 charges, five of which are of obtaining a financial advantage by deception contrary to s82(1) of the
Crimes Act.  Six are of attempting to obtain a financial advantage by deception contrary to s321M and s82(1) of the Crimes Act and five charges of using a false document contrary to s83A(2) of the Crimes Act.  The circumstances of your offending were set out in considerable detail in a lengthy prosecution opening for plea which was Exhibit A at your plea hearing.  It is not necessary for me to read that document out in full here.

2In summary, police investigated a series of fraudulent insurance claims involving some 31 staged motor car collisions.  Your pleas of guilty to 16 charges relate to 15 of those 31 staged motor car collisions that were investigated by police.  On each occasion you played a role in facilitating a staged collision between two motor vehicles.  One each occasion the registered owner of one of those vehicles wanting to commit an insurance fraud in order to obtain a financial benefit had contacted you and sought your assistance to stage a collision between two vehicles.

3Charge 1 for instance relates to a staged collision alleged to have occurred on 28 September 2014.  Your most recent offending to which Charge 16 relates was to use a false document in relation to a staged motor vehicle collision alleged to have occurred on 3 June 2017.  Your offending extended over that period of more than three years.  The maximum penalty for obtaining a financial advantage by deception contrary to s82 is 10 years' imprisonment.  The maximum penalty for attempting to obtain financial advantage by deception under s321(p) of the Act is five years' imprisonment.  And the maximum penalty for using a false document contrary to s83A of the Act is 10 years' imprisonment.

4By way of background, you are currently aged 39.  You have no prior convictions of any relevance to the offending for which I am to sentence you.

5You are a married man with five children between the ages of five and 16.  Your wife is expecting is your sixth child in early 2022.

6You were the eldest of eight children born to your parents.  You were born and raised in Melbourne.  You left school aged 15 intending to do an apprenticeship as a motor mechanic.  You obtained some employment in that field working with motor cars.

7In about 2004 your mother became seriously ill.  She died in June 2005.  You took on additional duties in respect of your younger siblings.  In about 2007 you purchased a tow truck with your father's assistance.  You still have that business.  In addition, you are involved with one of your brothers in a panel beating business.

8In 2011 when you were aged about 29 you were present at a panel workshop in Brunswick when two of your associates were shot dead.

9You developed mental health problems including depression, a gambling addiction and a drug addiction mainly focused on the use of cocaine.  By 2014 you were heavily indebted and struggling financially.  Over a period of some three and a half years between 2014 and 2017 you engaged in the offending which brings you before this court. 

10I have been provided with a report from Professor Stephen Woods, a psychologist, dated 1 February 2021.  He obtained a detailed history from you.  He concluded that you satisfied the diagnostic criteria for the following comorbid mental disorders.  Firstly, a major depressive disorder with a history of suicidal ideation on a background of persistent depressive disorder.  Secondly, other specified trauma and stressor related disorders specifically persistent complex bereavement disorder which was chronic and unresolved secondary to the death of your mother back in 2005.

11You had features of post-traumatic stress disorder secondary to the shooting of your business colleagues in 2011, together with an incident in 2016 in which your wife's motor vehicle was stolen for a short period whilst your young child was in the car unattended.  A gambling disorder, previously severe is now in remission.  Other specific personality disorders with mixed features.  A stimulant use disorder involving cocaine, amphetamine and MDMA (or ecstasy), previously severe but now in remission and an alcohol use disorder involving episodic binge drinking during more acute depressive episodes but now in early remission.

12Your counsel advised me and I accept that you are illiterate.  Professor Woods estimated that you are of average to low-average intelligence with a concrete thinking style.  He noted that you had ceased all contact with your co-accuseds relating to these offences.  He considered that you had demonstrated shame for your offending and remorse.  He considered that it would be in your long-term mental health interests for you to obtain appropriate treatment, focusing on but not limited to the following:  psychoeducation in relation to the diagnosed disorders and their nexus to your offending behaviour, trauma debriefing and structured treatment, substance misuse and gambling counselling and relapse prevention and the dynamics of your personality disorders.

13Treatment should include cognitive behaviour therapies to address depression and past trauma, grief resolution and bereavement counselling, dialectical behaviour therapy regarding your personality disorder, stress management and emotional regulation skills to enhance your ability to manage your emotions.  Self-esteem building and mood management impulse control training.

14He considered that random urine drug screening and alcohol abuse testing was recommended in order to monitor any substance use relapses.

15Your offending is in my opinion serious.  I note that you initially appear to have regarded it as being in effect a victimless crime.  That is completely incorrect.  I understand that you now realise that the victims of these fraudulent accidents were not only the insurance companies in question but the motoring public as a whole who as a consequence of such fraudulent activity pay more for motor vehicle insurance premiums.

16I have read and taken into account the victim impact statement from a senior executive of Suncorp Group, one of the largest insurance groups in Australia.  Written submissions and supplementary submissions prepared by your solicitor, a character reference from one Lui Humwei who has known you on a professional and personal level for 20 odd years, an affidavit affirmed by your wife and a letter apparently dictated by you.

17The aggravating features of your offending in my opinion are firstly that you persisted with your knowingly dishonest behaviour for some years.  This was not a case involving some momentary or brief lapse in judgment. Your behaviour was carefully thought out and quite intentional.

18Secondly, you must have known that the fraudulent accident that you facilitated would lead to fraudulent insurance claims and losses.

19Exactly what you gained in a monetary sense from your involvement in these fraudulent accidents and claims is unclear.  The only specific reference in the prosecution opening for plea is in relation to Charge 1, the staged collision said to have occurred in September 2014 when a claim by a driver of a vehicle that was struck by another settled with Suncorp insurance for a sum of about $23,500.  Of this amount, the solicitors acting for the claimant paid $8,209.79 to a company known as AMPM Towing, a company which I was informed was operated by the Abou-Eid family.

20Your counsel told me during the plea hearing that you were merely paid for your towing services, towing a car to a certain position and picking it up again at some later time.  Your counsel told me that you were paid for towing services and that you got, 'Bits and pieces along the way'.  Your counsel did not suggest any particular amount received by you but I am able to infer that you did receive payment for your part in each of the staged collisions with which you were involved.

21Counsel advised me that you had instructed him that you were prepared to offer reparation by way of instalments in relation to the losses suffered.  The amount of such loss, the number of reparations that you were prepared to pay was not made clear to me.  Now, Mr Ayache, what did that mean?

22MR AYACHE:  In terms of quantification, Your Honour?

23HIS HONOUR:  Well, if there is to be - if I am to take into account that reparations are to be made ‑ ‑ ‑ 

24MR AYACHE:  Yes, Your Honour.

25HIS HONOUR:  ‑ ‑ ‑ I want to know what reparations are to be made.  They may be an undertaking to this court that Mr Dunn had in mind that certain reparations would be made.  But it would be a meaningless situation if they were not identified.

26MR AYACHE:  I accept what Your Honour says and I must say I was not present for the entire sentence proceedings but if - an undertaking can be given.  Whether it be that that part of the proceeding be stood over, pending either an agreement between myself and the DPP's office or an amount determined by Your Honour as appropriate based on the circumstances.

27HIS HONOUR:  Well, there is simply no evidence before me which would enable me to do that and I am reluctant to make - to adjourn the matter and come back and go through all this again.  It seems to me that it ought to be a matter that could be determined following consultations between the prosecutor and yourself, naturally acting on the instructions of your client.  But perhaps if I come back to that in a moment, we might adjourn the matter for a short time to enable that to happen.

28MR AYACHE:  And I can indicate to Your Honour that my friend and I have touched on these discussions.  I do not anticipate there will be too much difficulty reaching some agreement.

29HIS HONOUR:  Good, thank you.  We will come back to that shortly.  A report was tendered at your plea hearing from a Mona Shafiq who is a mental health clinician dated 22 October 2021.  You had been referred to her by your general practitioner under a mental health care plan directed towards your ongoing anxiety.  She had treated you earlier this year but because of the COVID pandemic could only offer you telehealth sessions which I imagine would not be the premium health that could be given.

30She considered that you had been engaging and responding well in the sessions that you had with her and that you had expressed commitment to continue with them.  She considered that you would benefit from receiving cognitive behaviour therapy to improve your emotional wellbeing and mental health on a continuous basis. 

31Section 5 of the Sentencing Act provides that the only purposes for which sentences may be imposed are to punish the offender to an extent and in a manner which is just in all the circumstances, to deter the offender or other persons from committing offences of the same or similar character.  To establish conditions within which it is considered by the court that rehabilitation of the offender may be facilitated.  To manifest the denunciation by the court of the type of conduct in which the offender engaged.  To protect the community from the offender.  A combination of those purposes.

32The section also refers to a number of matters that the court must have regard to including, in particular, the maximum penalty prescribed for the offences, the nature and gravity of the offences, your culpability and degree of responsibility for those offences and the impact of the offences on any victim of them.  Taken into account, the matters referred to in that subsection in sentencing you, I am of the view that the nature and gravity of the offences were significant and that your culpability and degree of responsibility for them was significant.

33I accept that you were not the only person involved in these schemes; however, on the basis of the information before me I am of the view that your role was a key one.  The setting up of the fraudulent collisions was a key part and essential to the success of the scheme.  Without the facilitation of the collisions there would have been no fraudulent claims made on the insurance companies involved.  Whether you were truly a principal in relation to the offences committed is difficult to tell, although I note that your solicitor's written submission is that you could not be described as a principal.  There is presently no evidence before me to establish that you necessarily were.

34I take into account that your plea of guilty was made just before the committal hearing and that the plea had utilitarian value in that a relatively complex trial was avoided and witnesses were not required to give evidence at the committal or the trial.  That value is enhanced by the fact that it occured at a time when the courts are significantly affected by the pandemic with large waiting lists of cases to be heard.

35I take into account that you are in effect a first-time offender, although as stated previously I do not consider that this was a matter involving some momentary lapse of judgment.  I accept that your plea does demonstrate remorse and contrition on your part.  I accept that you did suffer for some time with a gambling and illicit drug addiction although I do not consider that either of those conditions have been demonstrated to be a cause of your offending.

36I accept that there has been some delay in bringing the matter before court and this would have added to your stress, having those matters hanging over your heard over that period.  Given that you have already commenced counselling and that you are apparently doing well with is, I think it likely that your prospects for rehabilitation are relatively good.  I note that you have not committed any offences since your arrest. 

37I also take into account the impact of the COVID pandemic is such that any period spent in incarceration would be considered more restrictive and difficult that incarceration in normal times. 

38I think at this point I will stand the matter down.  Between the two of you, what sort of time would you want to discuss this reparation issue?

39MR AYACHE:  I think to be safe, 30 minutes would be - I think we can do it in less than 30 minutes but just to be safe, Your Honour, 30 minutes because I will need to speak to the client as well and get some instructions.

40HIS HONOUR:  Yes, well you do that.  I have got another matter listed at 10.30 which I would think would take probably somewhere between half and three-quarters of an hour.  So, if you are ready to come back before me say in 15 minutes or 20 minutes, we will continue.  If not, I will simply stand your matter down until the other matter has been dealt with.

41MR AYACHE:  Yes, Your Honour.  If we do conclude discussions within that 30 minutes, we will email your associate.

42HIS HONOUR:  Yes, let him know.  Email or ring him up, have you got a phone number for him?

43MR AYACHE:  Yes.

44HIS HONOUR:  Yes.  All right, well the long and the short of it, I will stand the matter down temporarily now.

45MR AYACHE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

46(Short adjournment.)

47ASSOCIATE:  Yes, Your Honour.

48HIS HONOUR:  Sorry, just getting my spectacles.  Yes, gentlemen, any development that I should know of?

49MR AYACHE:  Thank you for that time, Your Honour.  The position is that myself and my friend could not, to use the colloquial, reach an agreement by way of calculations on the hop and we would need more time to turn our mind to proper calculations.  However, I do have instructions to offer reparation in the amount of $52,000 if Your Honour is minded to dispose of the matter today.  Alternatively if Your Honour wants the parties to convene and reach agreement, further time would be required.

50HIS HONOUR:  I am very happy to conclude the matter today if that is humanly possible.  And I note what you have just told me.  What was the intention - lump sum, instalments?

51MR AYACHE:  The money is not available to pay as a lump sum immediately.  It could be paid within 12 months and if it was required to be paid on a monthly basis that could occur, if Your Honour required it to be paid at the end of the 12-month period as a lump sum that could also occur.  It is 52,000 within 12 months.

52HIS HONOUR:  Yes.  Mr Lee ‑ ‑ ‑

53MR LEE:  Yes.

54HIS HONOUR:  ‑ ‑ ‑ if that was considered by me to be reasonable, perhaps not total ‑ ‑ ‑

55MR LEE:  Yes.

56HIS HONOUR:  ‑ ‑ ‑ but reasonable, what - I could simply take it as an undertaking to the court to pay within 12 months.

57MR LEE:  Yes, it could be dealt with in that manner.

58HIS HONOUR:  Yes.

59MR LEE:  As Your Honour is aware from the Crown opening, the direct - well, the financial advantage in relation to this accused is $129,000.  We made an attempt to work that out with what was apportioned in the Magistrates' Court, however, unfortunately in the Magistrates' Court they related to different vehicles to the ones referred to in the Crown opening, the seven vehicles at the end of the opening are different to the charge - the vehicles in the Magistrates' Court if that makes sense.  So, the charges that related to this accused are solely related to his involvement in specified collisions.

60HIS HONOUR:  Yes.  Well, I do not think I can go outside that anyhow but ‑ ‑ ‑

61MR LEE:  No.

62HIS HONOUR:  ‑ ‑ ‑ what I think I will simply do - well, it is my intention subject to Mr Abou-Eid consenting, as he is required to under the Sentencing Act, it is my intention to sentence him to a community correction order and would it be appropriate to make it a condition of that order or does that involve Corrections Victoria ‑ ‑ ‑

63MR LEE:  I think it is difficult to involve Corrections Victoria to be involved in that obligation to the court ‑ ‑ ‑

64HIS HONOUR:  Yes.

65MR LEE:  ‑ ‑ ‑ other than the ‑ ‑ ‑

66HIS HONOUR:  All right, I think I will note ‑ ‑ ‑

67MR LEE:  ‑ ‑ ‑ obligations of ‑ ‑ ‑

68HIS HONOUR:  ‑ ‑ ‑ and I think I will just simply say now to Mr Abou-Eid - do you give an undertaking to this court that you will pay the sum of $52,000 on or before 15th - by 4 pm, sorry, on 15 December 2022.  The money would be paid to whom, Mr Lee?

69MR LEE:  There are ‑ ‑ ‑

70HIS HONOUR:  To the informant?  I do not think Mr Abou-Eid needs to be tasked with tracking down ‑ ‑ ‑

71MR LEE:  No, I think one point would be the most appropriate.

72HIS HONOUR:  Yes.

73MR LEE:  I am just aware of there being several insurance companies ‑ ‑ ‑

74HIS HONOUR:  Yes.

75MR LEE:  ‑ ‑ ‑ but I think that would be easier to facilitate with one point.

76HIS HONOUR:  Well, I can have it paid to the Director of Public Prosecutions or I can have it directed to the informant whose name you will have to remind me of.

77MR LEE:  Yes.  Daniel Beard is the informant, Your Honour.

78HIS HONOUR:  Daniel who?

79MR LEE:  Beard.  B-e-a-r-d.

80HIS HONOUR:  D-a-n-i-e-l B-e-a-r-d and where is - what is he, what rank is he?

81MR LEE:  He is a detective senior constable.

82HIS HONOUR:  Yes.  Station?

83MR LEE:  Werribee police station.

84ASSOCIATE:  Your Honour, the informant is on the link ‑ ‑ ‑

85MR LEE:  Yes, it might be best if we get the details from - directly.

86HIS HONOUR:  Well, Mr Beard are you able to hear me clearly?

87MR BEARD:  Yes, Your Honour.

88HIS HONOUR:  And you have been listening to the last few minutes I take it?

89MR BEARD:  That is correct, yes.

90HIS HONOUR:  And if I was to accept an undertaking from Mr Abou-Eid that he would pay the sum of $52,000 by way of reparation in relation to losses caused by his offending conduct to you, Detective Senior Constable Daniel Beard at Werribee police station, is that ‑ ‑ ‑

91MR BEARD:  Sorry, Your Honour, I have just been promoted to Sergeant, I should have put that in the - in my details and I am now currently at the Footscray police station.

92HIS HONOUR:  (Indistinct words) the Footscray police station.

93MR BEARD:  That is correct, Your Honour.

94HIS HONOUR:  And if in the event that you get moved again or at that time in mid-December next year you are on leave or something like that, you will have to make arrangements for somebody else to stand in your place.

95MR BEARD:  Yes, all right, Your Honour.

96HIS HONOUR:  For this payment.  And I would expect that you or somebody on your behalf would provide Mr Abou-Eid with a simple receipt.

97MR BEARD:  Okay, Your Honour.

98HIS HONOUR:  That satisfactory from your end?

99MR BEARD:  Yes, Your Honour.

100MR AYACHE:  Yes.

101HIS HONOUR:  Thank you.  Now, going back to where I was, in all the circumstances, I have come to the conclusion that the appropriate sentence for you is to impose a community correction order of two years' duration on you.  I do so by having noted your undertaking to the court to pay the sum of $52,000 by way of reparation in respect of losses suffered by others as a consequence of your offending conduct.  I direct that you pay that sum by 4 pm on
15 December 2022 to the informant Sergeant Daniel Beard stationed at Footscray police station.

102You will need to contact Mr Beard in the lead up to that date to establish just how the money is to be transferred.  I do not expect you or suggest to you that you wanted around with $52,000 worth of cash in your pocket on the way up to the Footscray police station.  I have no doubt that some electronic transfer arrangements can be made.  On that basis I intend to sentence you to a community correction order but I can only do so if you consent to being a party to such order. 

103In fairness to you, Mr Abou-Eid, I will tell you what the conditions of the community correction order will be before I ask you whether you consent to them. Firstly, the community correction order will be of two years' duration and it is - it is a non-custodial order. I am sure you understand. In addition, we will start with the - just bear with me for a moment please. There are some conditions which are mandatory conditions which apply to every community correction order that is made or were imposed under s45 of the Sentencing Act 1991.

104And those terms, I will not read them word for word but they are that firstly that during the period of the order, during the two-year period of the order, you must not commit, in or out of Victoria, any offence punishable by imprisonment.  If you do it will be a breach of this order.  Secondly, you must report to and receive visits from the Secretary (indistinct words) for that Corrections Victoria during the period of the orders.  If they want to come and see you, want to see where you are living, where you are not living, whatever, they want you to come into the office there, you are required to do so.

105You must within two days of the commencement of the order, that is within two days - two business days of the order, report to - just battling to find - here we are.  The Corrections Victoria centre at 24/27 Dimboola Road, Broadmeadows.  Do you know where that is?

106OFFENDER:  Yes, Your Honour.

107HIS HONOUR:  Yes, good.  You must report there.  So, that will be - one day would be Friday, two days would be Monday, so by 4 pm on Monday you must have reported to Corrections Victoria at that address.

108OFFENDER:  Yep.

109HIS HONOUR: Further, you must report to your case manager any change of address or employment within two clear working days after the change. So, if you move house for any reason, get kicked out of the house for any reason and if you change your employment or job, you must report that within two days et cetera. I think that is an adequate summary of s45. In addition to those mandatory conditions, I will also impose some additional conditions which you should listen to carefully.

110Firstly that you are to perform 200 hours of unpaid community work during that two-year period pursuant to s48C of the Act.  Secondly, that you be subject to supervision and monitoring in accordance with s48 of the - 48E of the Act.  Now, supervision and monitoring generally speaking, you will be - you will have a case manager appointed to you early in the piece and it will be that person's job to monitor you and see how you are going during the period of the order.  And generally speaking you would be required to come into the Corrections office every now and again - it might be weekly, it might be fortnightly, might be monthly, might be some other period.  It depends on how you are travelling and whether you are coping well or otherwise.

111Further that you undergo treatment and rehabilitation in accordance with s48D of the Act in respect of assessment and treatment, including testing for drug abuse or dependency, assessment and treatment including testing for alcohol abuse or dependency and mental health assessment and treatment that may include psychological, neuropsychological, psychiatric or treatment in a hospital or residential facility, just depends on how you are going.

112Now, as I say, I can only make that order if you consent to it.  If you do not consent to it, well I will go away and reconsider my sentencing alternatives.  Do you want a moment with Mr Abou-Eid or has he discussed these with you?  You are on mute.

113MR AYACHE:  My apologies, Your Honour.  We have discussed these and he is prepared to accept those conditions.

114HIS HONOUR: Good, thank you. I am in possession of a report from Corrections Victoria of 12 December advising that you are considered suitable for such an order. Pursuant to s6AAA of the Sentencing Act, I declare that had you not pleaded guilty to these offences but had been found guilty of them, I would have sentenced you to a term of two years with a non-parole period of 18 months.

115MR LEE:  Your Honour, just in relation to the payment to the informant, I think it might be more appropriate to have it made payable to the Chief Commissioner of the Victorian Police.

116HIS HONOUR:  I am happy to and I am sure Mr Abou-Eid is also happy to do that.  But can you give me some sort of formal words to refer to ‑ ‑ ‑

117OFFENDER:  Yes, Your Honour.  Yes, Your Honour.

118HIS HONOUR:  I will just get Mr Lee to tell me where the money is to be paid.  I do not want Mr Abou-Eid to be wandering around the streets of Melbourne trying to find the Chief Commissioner.

119MR LEE:  Yes.  I do not have that immediately at my hands, Your Honour, but I will be able to provide your associate with the details in relation to that.  It just makes it easier for ‑ ‑ ‑

120HIS HONOUR:  I have no doubt.

121MR LEE:  ‑ ‑ ‑ (indistinct) I would have ‑ ‑ ‑

122HIS HONOUR:  Well, Mr Beard, where is the Chief Commissioner housed in Melbourne, do you know?

123MR BEARD:  Your Honour, I believe it is either 311 Spencer Street in Docklands or 313 Spencer Street in Docklands.  I am pretty sure it is 311 Spencer Street in Docklands.

124HIS HONOUR:  Well, what we will do - what we will do, Mr Abou-Eid is I will arrange for my associate to advise you in writing.  Have we got an email address for Mr Abou-Eid?

125MR AYACHE:  I am happy to receive it on his behalf and communicate that.

126HIS HONOUR:  All right, we will forward it to your solicitor who we do have an address for and (indistinct words) during the course of the day, I have no doubt, all right?

127OFFENDER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

128HIS HONOUR:  The disposal order I received recently.  I will make that order.  That relates to the knife ‑ ‑ ‑

129ASSOCIATE:  Your Honour, that is for the other matter.

130HIS HONOUR:  That is the other matter, what am I doing.  Are there any ancillary orders sought in relation to Mr Abou-Eid?

131MR LEE:  No, Your Honour.

132HIS HONOUR:  Thank you.  Anything else I need to turn my attention to?  I have got to sign a document Mr O'Mallon ‑ ‑ ‑

133ASSOCIATE:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honour.  But I can prepare that after we have finished because ‑ ‑ ‑

134HIS HONOUR:  Now that has to be also signed by you, Mr Abou-Eid and what is our proposal for that, Mr O'Mallon?

135ASSOCIATE:  Well, I will send it to the Corrections centre to which
Mr Abou-Eid has to report and on his first appointment within the two clear workings days, they can get him to sign it there and they can send the signed document to me.

136HIS HONOUR:  All right, you understand that?

137OFFENDER:  Yes, Your Honour, I am going to go there now.

138HIS HONOUR:  Yes, good idea, get it over and done with, do not leave it to the last moment.

139OFFENDER:  Yep.

140HIS HONOUR:  Good.  All right, anything else that the parties want to draw my attention to?

141MR AYACHE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

142MR LEE:  No, Your Honour.

143OFFENDER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

144HIS HONOUR:  Yes, thank you.  Just stand the matter down and we will bring the second matter on.  Or is that a separate ‑ ‑ ‑

145ASSOCIATE:  That is a separate link, Your Honour ‑ ‑ ‑

146HIS HONOUR:  Thank you, we will adjourn temporarily.

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