Director of Public Prosecutions (Cth) v Lawton
[2020] VCC 478
•24 April 2020
| IN THE COUNTY COURT OF VICTORIA | Revised Not Restricted Suitable for Publication |
AT MELBOURNE
CRIMINAL JURISDICTIONCR-19-02045
| COMMONWEALTH DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS |
| v |
| JOHN LAWTON |
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| JUDGE: | HIS HONOUR JUDGE M.P BOURKE |
| WHERE HELD: | Melbourne |
| DATE OF HEARING: | |
| DATE OF SENTENCE: | 24 April 2020 |
| CASE MAY BE CITED AS: | DPP (Cth) v Lawton |
| MEDIUM NEUTRAL CITATION: | [2020] VCC 478 |
REASONS FOR SENTENCE
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Legislation Cited:
Cases Cited:
Sentence:---
APPEARANCES: | Counsel | Solicitors |
| For the Commonwealth | Ms S. Holmes | |
| For the Accused | Ms S. Parsons |
HIS HONOUR:
1On Charge 1, I am going to impose a sentence of eight months but release immediately on a recognisance to be of good behaviour, its duration two years; the sum of it to be $2,000, not payable now of course and I will come back to what the additional conditions should or should not be.
2On Charge 2, a community corrections order of two years with additional 200 hours work, treatment and rehabilitation, that is programs specifically to reduce this type of offending, supervision. All hours participated in in respect of a Sex Offender Program or the relevant program can be set off against the 200 hours of community work.
3Just excuse me for a moment.
4All right. Now, we will deal with the less difficult things first.
5We have received a forfeiture order. In Commonwealth matters, does a document need to be signed for a forfeiture or do I just announce the order, Ms Holmes?
6MS HOLMES: Your Honour, I understand my instructor has sent through the order that needs to be signed ‑ ‑ ‑
7HIS HONOUR: All right. You have got that?
8MS HOLMES: ‑ ‑ ‑ in the s.23Z of the Crimes Act (Cth).
9HIS HONOUR: Yes, I have been handed that.
10MS HOLMES: That is the important to Your Honour if the rest ‑ ‑ ‑
11HIS HONOUR: Yes. Yes, I have got it, Ms Holmes. The schedule on that order, Ms Parsons indicates, that all of the seized electronic equipment is to be forfeited. Does your client consent to that, oppose it or do you wish to say anything?
12MS PARSONS: No, Mr Lawton consents to that order, Your Honour.
13HIS HONOUR: Well, I will make that order. In fact, I will sign it now so that order has been made. I will hand that back to you, Fran.
14Is this a case which requires registration under the Sex Offenders Registration Act?
15MS PARSONS: It is, Your Honour. Yes.
16MS HOLMES: Yes, Your Honour.
17HIS HONOUR: And can someone tell me what the reporting period is?
18MS PARSONS: I understand it to be 15 years, Your Honour.
19HIS HONOUR: Fifteen years. Yes.
20Now, is this a case in which the Crown seems a forensic sample under s.464ZF?
21MS HOLMES: No, Your Honour.
22HIS HONOUR: No? All right.
23All right. Now, is there anything else by way of ancillary orders that you seek to raise, Ms Holmes?
24MS HOLMES: Yes, there is one other matter, Your Honour, ‑ ‑ ‑
25HIS HONOUR: Yes, what is that?
26MS HOLMES: ‑ ‑ ‑ and that is the forfeiture of the ammunition ‑ ‑ ‑
27HIS HONOUR: Yes.
28MS HOLMES: ‑ ‑ ‑ under the Firearms Act and again I have sent that through to your associate this morning.
29HIS HONOUR: All right. Do we have that, Fran? If you hand it to me, I will be able to. Yes. Yes. I have signed that. I will hand it back. All right. No opposition to that, I take it, Ms Parsons?
30MS PARSONS: No, Your Honour.
31HIS HONOUR: All right.
32MS PARSONS: No. No opposition.
33HIS HONOUR: All right. Now, I noted, Ms Holmes, it may be my misconstruction, or it may be a typographical error, just give me a moment. In your submissions at paragraph 25, it says, as I read it, this and it concerns the combination of the two orders I propose.
'A court may impose a recognisance release order on a Federal offence and a community corrections order on a State offence.'
34Then it says this,
'Providing any time to be served prior to release on the recognisance order is one year.'
35That does not refer to the period of imprisonment. It refers to the duration of the recognisance order, is that right?
36MS HOLMES: No, no, that is referring to the period of imprisonment that may be served.
37HIS HONOUR: Well, I did not go there the other day, but I never fail to be astonished by Commonwealth sentencing law. Does that mean I cannot impose a concurrent, if you like, community corrections order if I only sentence him to eight months?
38MS HOLMES: No, not at all, Your Honour.
39HIS HONOUR: What does it mean?
40MS HOLMES: What Your Honour has done is - what it means is that if Your Honour was going to impose a recognisance release order for a period of imprisonment of, say, two years for 14 months to be served, ‑ ‑ ‑
41HIS HONOUR: Yes.
42MS HOLMES: ‑ ‑ ‑ that imprisonment is prohibited from being a combination sentence effectively, the same as the provisions when you are imposing a combination for a State matter.
43HIS HONOUR: Well, I will not stress myself by asking why. I do not have to. All right? All right. Now, that has been resolved.
44Now, I seem to have two forms, Ms Holmes, of the suggested recognisance order. I may be wrong about that but it alerts me to this; is it suggested that the recognisance order should contain a condition related to Sex Offender Program work or is it sufficient that the community corrections order do that?
45MS HOLMES: It is sufficient that the community corrections order do that, Your Honour.
46HIS HONOUR: All right. Go on.
47MS HOLMES: My (indistinct) the two versions of the order, one that was a blank order - as I understand it, it was a blank order for Your Honour to complete as you saw fit and the other was simply a full order that is sometimes provided by way of assistance that contains all of the orders that have been agreed by way of a memorandum that is standing between Corrections and the Commonwealth that are options for Your Honour to consider as part of the recognisance release order ‑ ‑ ‑
48HIS HONOUR: All right.
49MS HOLMES: ‑ ‑ ‑ but it is not submitted that those are required in this case.
50HIS HONOUR: Would it be prudent to use the shorter order but under (b)(1) indicate that he is to comply with the community corrections order made on this day?
51You see, one problem you might be able to envisage is if he breaches the community corrections order in respect of this condition, I would have no power to act under the recognisance order necessarily, would I?
52MS HOLMES: That is right, Your Honour, but I would think that, in the circumstances, if Your Honour is concerned about that, that there would not be any detriment to including the Sex Offender Program on both orders.
53HIS HONOUR: Well, I will just - yes, I follow.
54What I will do, I will use the shorter order. It says this, 'The court orders the release of the defendant under the relevant paragraph forthwith', and so I will put a line through after serving, 'Upon the defendant giving' - no, giving security does not matter.
55By recognisance, I have put $2,000 not to be paid unless you breach the order, Mr Lawton. To comply with the following conditions, to be of good behaviour for two years and to comply with the following conditions and I am going to say that he comply with the conditions of the community corrections order also made this day.
56All right. So I think I have done that correctly.
57Now, how are we going to manage the mechanics of this? On the community corrections order, I could sign the order after I have put it to Mr Lawton and he agrees with the conditions which would be done in a public setting and recorded and then I could forward the community corrections order to the relevant community corrections office and they could have him sign it formally in accordance with his consent when they begin the order or meet with him which would be by phone but they could manage it, I should imagine, by transmitting electronically.
58I am attracted to that idea but I will just wait on what your response is because I wonder what can be done in respect of the recognisance order. Normally the accused is in court. I sign it, it is taken down to him and he signs it before - or witnessed by my associate. What suggestions have we got?
59MS HOLMES: Your Honour, my suggestion would be - is obviously subject to my learned friend's understanding of Mr Lawton's capacity to get the document back but I would suggest some - if the document could be signed by Your Honour and then emailed to Mr Lawton and he could sign and email it back if he has the capacity to do that.
60If he does not have the capacity to do that, I see Mr Lawton is nodding his head, that I think would be satisfactory.
61HIS HONOUR: All right. In other words, we need to get him to sign the relevant document in some way today rather than doing it the same way as the community corrections order.
62I will ask you, Ms Parsons; what do you suggest about this? It sounds fraught with difficulty but I am notoriously pessimistic about these things. What can be done?
63MS PARSONS: Well, I have discussed this with Mr Lawton, Your Honour. He does have the capacity to be able to print documents at his home address and he has the assistance there of his daughter ‑ ‑ ‑
64HIS HONOUR: All right.
65MS PARSONS: ‑ ‑ ‑ and then I discussed this with him previously that he could print the order, sign the order and then we could arrange for an image to be taken of the signed order and sent directly to your associate and the other parties and then the original would have to be returned to the court as well obviously and we can assist him with that.
66HIS HONOUR: All right.
67MS PARSONS: If that satisfies, Your Honour.
68HIS HONOUR: All right. Yes.
69MS PARSONS: Just while I am addressing, Your Honour, if I can just raise, we cannot see you, Your Honour, and I wondered whether for ‑ ‑ ‑
70HIS HONOUR: That does not worry me as long as you can hear me.
71MS PARSONS: All right. I just raised ‑ ‑ ‑
72HIS HONOUR: All right. Thank you. Let's deal with one thing at a time. What you are suggesting is that I sign the recognisance order, it would be sent electronically to him and then he will scan back his signed version or scan back or send back what he has signed to my associate's email address, I take it, ‑ ‑ ‑
73MS PARSONS: Yes.
74HIS HONOUR: ‑ ‑ ‑ and that would be regarded as her witnessing the signature.
75MS PARSONS: That is what I am proposing.
76HIS HONOUR: All right. I see no problem of that the reason being I can take him through in a formal way his consent to the recognisance order and which will be recorded in a court setting.
77What do you say about all of that, Ms Holmes?
78MS HOLMES: Yes, Your Honour. Just that last suggestion of Your Honour's that you take him through it formally and explain the matters formally to him on the transcript.
79HIS HONOUR: Yes.
80MS HOLMES: The sections of the Crimes Act (Cth) require that the recognisance be explained to Mr Lawton. If that happens on the transcript, I cannot see any issue with that.
81HIS HONOUR: All right. Well, you can listen to what I say at the end and if I fall short in any way, you will let me know. All right.
82Now, I will hand this down to you, Fran, and you can just check it to see - Fran, check it see whether anything else needs to be added. I will put the longer recognisance order aside and I am asked to authorise the placing of Mr Lawton's sentence, meaning sentencing reasons, on the so-called media portal. I see no reason not to do that. Does anybody wish to raise something in respect of that?
83MS PARSONS: No, Your Honour.
84HIS HONOUR: No. All right. Well, I do authorise the placing of this sentence on the medial portal.
85All right. Mr Lawton, you now know what I propose doing by way of sentencing you. I need to state my reasons for that and I am going to do that now. It will take 10 or so minutes. I would ask you to wait courteously while I do that and then I will formally sentence you. Just excuse me.
86If I cannot be heard at any time, people should indicate perhaps physically. I will not be looking at the screen but my associate and tipstaff will, I take it.
87John Alfred Lawton, you are to be sentenced for one charge of using a carriage service to access child pornography under s.474.19 of the Criminal Code (Cth); and one charge of possessing child pornography under s.51G of the Crimes Act (Vic). The respective maximum sentences are 15 and 10 years' imprisonment. You are also to be sentenced for the summary offence, failing to store cartridge ammunition under the Firearms Act (Vic). The maximum sentence is 12 months' imprisonment.
88You pleaded guilty before me on 22 April. When interviewed by police on 6 June 2019, fundamentally you made full admissions. The committal went by hand-up brief on 11 October 2019 after which you entered a plea of guilty.
89You receive the benefit of your pleas of guilty and that high level of cooperation both from an early stage. You have facilitated the interests of justice. I accept that you are remorseful.
90At your plea hearing, which also ran on 22 April, Ms Holmes for the Crown tendered a written Crown opening.
91Ms Parsons for you tendered a number of letters of character reference; the letter of Professor James Ogloff dated 30 March 2020 describing your participation in the CEM-COPE Program directed at persons such as you who have possessed or accessed child exploitation material; the treatment summary of your general practitioner, Dr Moses Jegaraj, dated 14 April 2020; and the reports of forensic Psychologist, Mathew Barth, and his associate, treating Psychologist Geoffrey Burrows. They are dated 29 March and 6 April 2020.
92Both counsel have provided written submissions on sentence.
93The circumstances of your offending are comprehensively set out in the tendered Crown opening, Exhibit A. My own summary may be short.
94On 6 June 2019, Victoria Police from the Joint Anti Child Exploitation Team raided your Kurunjang home near Melton. You were about to turn 70 years and live there with your wife. Police search revealed a number of electronic devices belonging to you and containing child pornography videos.
95The Crown opening sets out detail of the type and category of these. In short summary, that opening, dealing with the two relevant indictable offences, states at paragraphs 19 and 20, I quote,
'Of the 38 videos, 34 were unable to be viewed for categorisation purposes. Despite this, the prosecution relies upon all of the files outlined in paragraphs 10 to 16 but for those marked with an asterisk, eight in total, to form part of the evidence in relation to Charge 2, possession of child abuse material. Resultantly, it is submitted that in total, 30 child exploitation video files were possessed by the offender. The offender admits to having downloaded the child abuse material. Further, the file names indicate the videos contain child abuse material.'
96Paragraph 20,
'The evidence in relation to Charge 1, use of a carriage service to access child pornography material, is limited to paragraph 10 reflecting the three-year period in which the offender admitted to having accessed child pornography.'
97Paragraph 10 describes the child pornography or abuse material accessed by you and located in a USB drive found in your study. They were 10 relevant videos. Overall, the material subject to both charges concern children aged from about 10 years to 16, mainly girls. Of 30 files categorised in paragraph 17 and 18 of the opening, the most serious of the recognised categories, No.2, those two contained,
'Penetrative sexual activity between children.'
98Twenty five of the 30 were found to be within a lesser category,
'Anime cartoons, comics and drawings depicting and/or describing children engaged in sexual poses or activity.'
99The Crown concedes that overall the number of images was relatively low and that your offending is placed at or toward the lower end of the range in terms of seriousness of this type of offending.
100You are a 70-year old man without prior or subsequent convictions. You were raised in the Footscray area of Melbourne. You described to forensic psychologist, Mr Barth, a largely unremarkable childhood and positive relationships with family. You were the middle of three children. You left school after Year 9, completed an electrical apprenticeship and worked in that trade for over 40 years, eventually establishing your own business. You retired about 10 years ago.
101You married and have three adult children, six grandchildren and one greatgrandchild. You are estranged from one daughter and her family because of this offending. Otherwise, your family is supportive of you. Your wife suffered cancer and was ill at the time of your arrest. She died early this year. You had been married 50 years.
102The tendered material describes a caring family man and a person involved in community activities. You have physical health issues not inconsistent with your age; asthma, mild coronary disease and you suffered pneumonia in 2011. You general practitioner describes, in a 2013 note, past asbestos exposure.
103Forensic psychologist, Mr Barth, states no significant mental health problems. There is understandable grief at the illness and loss of your wife. There are depression and anxiety symptoms related to this offending. As to your offending, Mr Barth states your poor understanding of the sexual development of young people; for example, you attributed a precautious sexuality to the girls depicted in the images you accessed and possessed. You have said that you did not see any harm to the girls in what you did.
104Mr Barth states that,
'This formed the basis for prominent, cognitive distortions about them. This consequently led to the deviant sexual fantasies which underpinned his offending. These aspects point to the presence of significant dysfunction in Mr Lawton's sexuality.
'In summary, Mr Lawton's offending can be viewed as a culmination of his poor understanding of the normative emotional and sexual development of female children. In turn, this formed the basis for prominent offence-supporting cognitions and the deviant sexual arousal processes which underpinned his conduct.'
105Mr Barth assessed you as low to moderate risk of reoffending. There is a pressing need, he says, for you to resume and continue to completion an appropriate specialist sex offending treatment program. There has been voluntary but limited participation in the CEM-COPE program referred to earlier and in a sex offender treatment program with Mr Barth's associate, Geoffrey Burrows. Mr Burrows reports good initial process but rehabilitation remains incomplete.
106Offending like this is serious and is seen as becoming more prevalent. The children shown in such images are extremely likely to be particularly vulnerable and are the victims of a brutally cynical exploitation. Any decent community's obligation is to prevent such an industry's growth and success. Sentencing considerations such as deterrence, particularly general deterrence, denunciation, moral culpability and the need for proportionate punishment are relevant.
107However, in your case, there are also relevant moderating factors. They include the following.
108(1) Your otherwise good character at an advanced age. In saying this, I also bear in mind that good character is not uncommon in such offending as this. (2). Your plea of guilty and cooperation. You are remorseful.
109(3). With assistance, you are capable of rehabilitation in the sense of a more insightful understanding and remorse and that you will, I find, very likely desist in the future. The shame already suffered is likely a large part of that.
110(4). As put in the filed defence submissions, the present problems raised in prison custody by the COVID-19 pandemic is relevant. I accept that you have a particular vulnerability to a serious case of the virus if infected and that imprisonment would be harder for you in the present circumstances.
111Ultimately, I must sentence you on the basis that immediate imprisonment should be imposed only in the circumstance that no other sentence can address the relevant purposes. This is reflected in both State and Commonwealth principles of sentencing.
112I agree with the submissions of both Crown and defence that the appropriate sentences considering all of the relevant factors are that of imprisonment but immediate recognisance release on the Commonwealth offence and a community corrections order on the State offence. There should be appropriate punitive and rehabilitative conditions attached to that order.
113I will not ask you to stand, Mr Lawton, but I am going to formally sentence you as follows and then we will have to deal with the relevant documents.
114I sentence you as follows.
115On Charge 1, you are sentenced to eight years' imprisonment but you are to be released today upon a recognisance in the sum of $2,000 to be of good behaviour. The duration of the recognisance should be two years.
116On Charge 2, you are convicted and I impose a community corrections order of two years' duration. The usual terms apply. The additional conditions are that you perform 200 hours of unpaid community work, that you be under supervision and that you participate as directed in a relevant offence-specific program. My expectation would be an appropriate sex offender program. All hours of participation in such a program can be set off against the community work hours.
117On the summary offence of failing to store ammunition, without conviction, you are fined $400.
118I am presuming, Ms Holmes, that s.6AAA applies to the Commonwealth as well as the State offence.
119MS HOLMES: Yes, Your Honour.
120HIS HONOUR: Yes. All right.
121MS HOLMES: I submit that it does.
122HIS HONOUR: I should do it in any event.
123Under s.6AAA of the Sentencing Act (Vic), I indicate that if you had not pleaded guilty, I would have imposed a sentence of 12 months but allow recognisance release after serving four months of that sentence. I would have also imposed a community corrections order upon that release.
124As I was told, you are to be registered on the Sex Offenders Registration Act or legislation. That means and I failed to raise this earlier that those documents need to be sent to him and he will be asked to receive and to sign a document saying he has received them. I would be obliged if he were to return those documents signed to my associate's email address which will be supplied.
125The reporting period is 15 years. The documents forwarded to you, Mr Lawton, will give a fuller explanation of your obligations under that legislation. It is mandated, that is compulsory, that I make the registration order.
126All right. Well, I need to take Mr Lawton through both the community corrections order and the recognisance release order, do I not, Ms Holmes?
127MS HOLMES: Yes, Your Honour.
128HIS HONOUR: Yes.
129MS HOLMES: So just for the purposes of the transcript, Your Honour announced the period of imprisonment on Charge 1 as eight years, not eight months.
130HIS HONOUR: Did I say eight years? I meant to say eight months. Yes.
131MS PARSONS: Thank you, Your Honour.
132MS HOLMES: Yes.
133MS PARSONS: Thank you, Ms Holmes.
134HIS HONOUR: I said eight years, did I? Yes. I said eight years.
135MS PARSONS: And also just for the ‑ ‑ ‑
136HIS HONOUR: Yes, go on.
137MS PARSONS: And just for the purposes of the transcript, Your Honour, just to confirm the ancillary orders that were made.
138HIS HONOUR: Yes. I have signed two forfeiture orders; one in respect of the electronic devices and the other in respect of the ammunition.
139In an abundance of caution, I will repeat my sentence on Charge 1 more correctly. You are sentenced to be imprisoned for eight months but you are to be released today upon a recognisance in the sum of $2,000 to be of good behaviour. The duration of the recognisance is two years.
140I do not think I need to repeat the other sentences.
141MS HOLMES: Thank you, Your Honour.
142HIS HONOUR: All right. Now, let me deal with the - now, can you hand me back the recognisance order please? Thank you.
143It is probably just as well that I am going to state it in court. It is a pretty rough job on the amendments but I think it is made clear.
144Mr Lawton, on Charge 1, accessing the child pornography, I have sentenced you to eight months but I am allowing your release on a recognisance to be of good behaviour. The recognisance is in the sum of $2,000 but you will only be obliged to pay that if you breached the bond, that is the recognisance.
145The conditions are that you be of good behaviour for the period of two years and also a special condition that you comply with the conditions of the State community corrections order that I have also imposed this day. If you do not comply with the condition to be of good behaviour and that special condition, you can be brought back before the court and dealt with again.
146Is that the correct way of putting it, Ms Holmes?
147MS HOLMES: Yes, Your Honour.
148HIS HONOUR: Yes. Thank you.
149I am going to sign the order now. I have initialled changes which have been reflected in what I have read out to you and it is going to be sent to you for your signature.
150All right. Now, that is what needs to be said in respect of the recognisance order. Do we have the community corrections order there?
151I am going to read you, Mr Lawton, what your obligations are under the State sentence which is a community corrections order.
152For the offence of possessing child abuse material, you are convicted and I impose a community corrections order of two years' duration. That means that you must attend at the Melton Community Corrections Services within two days of today, I take it two workings days, that would be probably Tuesday, and arrangements will be made for you to phone in there.
153The usual terms are; that you must not commit another offence for which you could be imprisoned during the time; that you comply with an obligation that you do not attend any work site or appointment or relevant meeting affected by alcohol or drugs or in possession of illegal drugs; you must report to and receive visits from Community Corrections; you must let them know within two clear working days of a change of address or a job; you must not leave Victoria without getting their permission; you must in short obey all lawful instructions of Community Corrections.
154The additional terms are; that you perform 200 hours of unpaid work over that two-year period. All hours of treatment and rehabilitation satisfactorily undertaken can be counted as hours of unpaid community work.
155There is no reference to supervision that I can see. Can you type out another one? There is a condition of supervision. Well, it may not have been in that but I did announce it. Yes. We are just going to add that to the - whilst that is happening, a further condition is that you participate in programs that address factors particularly related to this offending and just to clarify, in respect of what I have just said, there was a further condition that you be under the supervision of a community corrections officer.
156I will ask you this question now. Do you understand the effect of all of that and the conditions, Mr Lawton?
157OFFENDER: Yes, I do.
158HIS HONOUR: Yes. And do you consent to the order being made?
159OFFENDER: I do consent.
160HIS HONOUR: All right. Well, I will sign the order and it will be emailed to you and I would be obliged if you sign it as well and send it back to the email address of my associate which will be provided.
161OFFENDER: Yes, sir.
162HIS HONOUR: I will just wait for the proper order.
163Ms Parsons, do you need to give me the email address that we send this too?
164MS PARSONS: Yes, that is probably sensible. I will do that now.
165HIS HONOUR: All right. Now, who is going to note it down? Go on.
166MS PARSONS: Yes. It is lower case [email protected].
167HIS HONOUR: Have you got that, Fran? I think you should read it back. You are confident you have got it. All right.
168Well, I am going to sign the - there is no second page?
169MS PARSONS: It is J Lawton. Yes.
170HIS HONOUR: All right. Well, you added something in. Can we just go over it again? Fran, can you read back the email address as you understand it?
171ASSOCIATE: [email protected], all lower case.
172MS PARSONS: Yes, that is right, and in fact it just occurred to me, it is the same email address that your associate has been sending the WebEx invitations too of course.
173HIS HONOUR: All right. Very well. Thank you.
174All right. Now, Ms Holmes, is there anything else I need to say?
175MS HOLMES: No, Your Honour.
176HIS HONOUR: Sorry, Ms Holmes? You said, 'No, there is nothing else'.
177MS HOLMES: No. No, Your Honour.
178HIS HONOUR: No. Very well. Thank you. Ms Parsons, there is nothing else I need to do or say?
179MS PARSONS: No. Thank you, Your Honour.
180HIS HONOUR: All right.
181Yes. On the Sex Offenders Registration, we need to record what class offence it is. Is anything contained in the submission? What class is it?
182MS HOLMES: (Indistinct words.).
183HIS HONOUR: Sorry, again? I will ask again. Does anybody know what class ‑ ‑ ‑
184MS HOLMES: I am just checking (indistinct words).
185HIS HONOUR: Thank you.
186MS HOLMES: Yes, if you open it at paragraph 31, it is two Class 2 offences.
187HIS HONOUR: Very well. Thank you. All right. Well, that will be recorded.
188All right. It remains for me to thank you, Ms Holmes and Ms Parsons, for your assistance. I thought the day went remarkably well considering the difficulties that stood before us.
189MS PARSONS: Thank you, Your Honour. Yes.
190HIS HONOUR: I cannot remember the other day but it had its difficulties I think. Thank you for your patience.
191MS PARSONS: Thank you, Your Honour.
192HIS HONOUR: We will turn you both off now. Very well. Thank you.
193MS PARSONS: Thank you.
194MS HOLMES: Thank you, Your Honour.
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