In the matter of the Bankruptcy Act 1966 and in the matter of Creditor's Petition re John Thomas Savage ex parte General Plastics Pty Lty

[1978] FCA 126

)h G-I~,Ff 'g C-r

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Copyr ight i l l t h e Cctq '~cnwenl th Gcvernmcnt kW‘

JUDGMENT NO. ~rn~hdwaw~ &rn ~

I;\! THE i i ' E D E ~ 0 U R . T OF J2JSr:' z \ L IA - *--.c-

G e - ~ ~ s i c n w i

Bankruptcy D i s t r i c t c\f t h e S t a t e

of V i c t c r i a

I n t h e m a t t e r o f -

THE BATJKRUPTCli ACT l966

And i n the rnnt ter o f

CREDITOR'S PZTITION_rn	--
JOHN THONAS Si-IVAGE

ex p a r t e Genera l Plastics P t y Ltd

Coram: C . A . SWEENEY J

T ZZL1fd'SC RIPT OF P ROCEZD INGS

BW/M/3a

Savage

J. D. LCEWENSTEllV and MR R. GILLARQ appeared f o r t h e p e t i t i o n i n g

c r e d i t o r .

MR M .	C .	K P l M appeared	f o r the	d e b t o r .
-__I_

IvlR D. N. DURACK appeared f o r t h e Deputy Commissioner o f T a x a t i o n ,

a s u p p o r t i n g c r e d i t o r .

'11s ROTJOUR: IcJhnt i s t h e arm unt sa-itl t c be owinr: t u y o u r c l i e n t

14 r D u r ~ c k ?

NR DIJRACK: $1 l ,950.30, your Ecncur.

MR KIMTvL: Your Bon::ur, I have a l r e a d y i n d i c a t e d to my l e a r n e d

f r i e n d s I propc~se tc make an a p p l i c a t i o n f o r an adjournment

o f t h e h e a r i n g o f t h e p e t i t i c n .

111s HONOUR: I s t h a t an oppcsed a p p l i c a t i o n ?

T/iR KIMN;	It	i s an opposed a p p l i c a t i o n ,
HIS liONijUl%	I w i l l d e a l wi th t h e m3tti.r a t t h e end GP t h e l i s t , 1

gentlemen. I might s a y i n r e l a t i o n t c ; t h a t c a s e it wc;uld

r epay a l l c o u n s e l s t t i m e , I t h i n k , if t h e y l o c ~ k e d a t t h e

r e g i s t r a r f s c e r t i f i c a t e , i f t h e y have n o t q l r e a d y done so. l l

( A t 10.36 a.lx. t h i s m a t t e r w ~ ~ s s tood down t e n p o r a r i l y

and h i s 1icn::ur proce(2dc.d w i t : ? a n o t h e r n a t t e r )

(Con t inued on page -3) l

* UPON IIESUMING AT 10. 58 AeNe

\

2 . LOEWENSTEIN: I n r e l a t i a n to t h - i t matt-er t!~.:?erz- have b e e n s ~ m e

d i s c u s s i o n s which t 3 t h i s s t a g e have fist re52ched any

d e g r e z o f f i n a l i t y . P e r h a p s i f \?re c m l d have t h e natter

s t o o d down f ~ r ::me 1-0 o r I 5 minu tes we. would a l l be

. incisbted. t:) yaur .Honour, i f eie c ~ u l d have i t s t 3 3 d down

unt5-l 11.15 3.m.

HIS IlONOUi3a Do u n t i l 11.30 y:)~: t h i n k it m i g h t .c b e t t e r t 9 have i t s t o o d down

a . ~ . ?

MEi UIEW~?STEITT: I do na t ' k i nl.; i t -d i l l - be nece r . sa ryq I fuhink

q u a r t e r 3f a i l h s u r w i l l l ie q u i t e s u l f i c i e n t ,

H I S HCNOUR: I w i ! . l s t a n d t h e mattzer 3':1wn u ~ t j . 1 11.15 a.m.

(At l1 a m , t h e m;,i;ter was s t m d down 1.znti1 11.15 a.m.)

( C o n t i n u e d on page 4)

FW/LS/6a

Savage

IJPOT'3	rnS'C3I ING-	AT	I 1	0 1 5'	,,A	0 7 : ; . :
---c.Ic31

PIR KIMM: 1 i n d i c a t e d ' tc y ~ u r Ht nl-ur t h a t T: proposed t c make

a p p l i c a t i c n f c r a d j ~ u r n n e n t ; I u n d e r s t m d t h e a p p l i c a t i o n

i s s t i l l cppcsed by py l e a r n e d f r i e n d . Other t h a n perhaps

t h e gentlt.man appearing f c r t h e Deputy C~rnmiss ioner

of Taxat ion - i f he cc.luld i n d i c a t e - - -

l

MR DUWiCK: The re reduced has been a p ropos i t i :~n pu t , O u r debt may w e l l be

on f i l i n g of t h e 1978 incclme t a x r e t u r n i n

r e l a t i l ~ n t o an amount c)f p r o v i s i c n a l t a x . M r Savaget S

s o l i c i t c r has i n f c rncd u s t h a t w i l l be dcne i n t h e next

1

couple of days , and if t h e debt i s reduced t c , szrnewhere

arcund $6000 t h a t w,,uld be a b l e - t c be p a i d tzLrnost

iu;rilediately. On t h n t b a s i s we wculd nc t oppose an l

adjcurnment f o r a per icd c f 14 days.

l!R KmM: The s i t u s t i c r l i s t h a t t;lthcugh triy c l i e n t , M r Savage, was

se rved with t h e p e t i t i o n scmc weeks agc, he i n s t r u c t e d t h e

gentleman s i t t i n g c,pposite roe z t t h e b a r t a b l e l a s t

F r i d a y and I had a ccnference i n t h i s a q t t 2 r l a t e

y e s t e r d a y a f te rnocn; indeed, I saw the p e t i t i o n and

suppor t i ng a f f i d z v i t s t h i s morning f lr t h e f i r s t t ime

when MrLoewenstein s h ~ w e d them roe. Ply c l i e n t had

mi s l a id them i n the meant irne ,

Althcugh I had a l eng thy c r n f c r ~ n c c w i th my

c l i e n t yc s t e r d a y , I c a n l o t say I hnvi. t hLIr~ul:l?ly i nves t i g a t -

ed t h e f a c t s c f t h i s m a t t e r sc 2s t c , s a t i s f y myself I am

adequate ly i n s t r u c t e d t o answer t h e p e t i t i ~ n . Tbat i s

one ground oa which I W _ u l d seek an ad j ~ ~ u r n ! ? ~ e n t .

The o t h e r ground i s t h a t t h e r e has been an 1

a f f i d a v i t f i l s d t h i s morning, an a f f i d a v i t of IIargaret Mary

Savage, Perhaps I rriig%t t z k e your Hcncur t c t h a t

a f f i d a v i t . ~

HIS HONOUR Who f i h d t h a t a f f i d a v i t ? 1

KR K D P i : It was f i l e d on beha l f c f my c l i e n t , the d2b tc r . I

HIS	HONOUR	H H ? , ~	t h a t	been	served	on	t h e	pe t i t i c ;n ing	c r e d i t o r ?	~
l

IviRKIMM: I handed a ccpy tc: ay l e a r n e d f r i e n d s t h i s morning. It

was swurn t h i s rncrning.

l

HIS HONOUR What doe S t h a t a f f i d a v i t s!iow?

MR KIMM: Simply, i t shc.)ws t h a t rny c l i e n t ' s w i f e , Mrs Savage -

t h e p e t i t i o n i n g	c r e d i t o r	i s indeb ted t c h e r	i n t h e	s u m of
$81,850 - - -

HIS EIONOUR: Would you l i k e me t o r ead t h e a f f i d a v i t ? I

MR KlNM: Yes, ycu r Honour; I was gc ing t c summarise it but - - - l

HIS HONOUR I f ycu would l i k e t c s i t down I w i l l r e ad i t . l

BWH/M/	l b
Savage

MR KIMM: In t he c i rcumstances c\f t h a t a f f i d a v i t and t h e i n t e n t i o n

cf t h e de ,~oncnt t l 2;sign t h e suir , f $439335.89 tc:

s a t i s f y t h e d e b t , i n my subrnissi.cn a s u b s t a n t i a l argument

I c:luld a r i s e 7s t c whether t h a t i s s u f f i c i z n t answer t o t h e

p e t itic;n,

I r e f e r ycur n i u r t U t L w nc,td ~ h i c h appeared

c n p. 95 of t hc 5't h E d i t i c n of fllcI>c;nald, IIcnry & Meek:

" I f a d e b t c r 21as a r i g h t ti. a set-\:ff ...

( re :?ds) . . . se que s t r a t i cn order" .

1 We d e s i r s t~ argue t h a t qucs t ion befr;re t h i s c c u r t .

There a r e t h e r e f o r e t w grcunds upon which I ~

seek t h e adjcurnment f ~ r 14 days: ( 1 ) t h a t I am not

adequa te ly prepared t c prcceed with t h e :nat ter today and

( 2 ) t hose	grounds which	appear	frorn t h e	a f f i d a v i t	o f
Mrs Savage,

1 HIS HONOUR Thank you M r K i r n m . MrLwwenstein?

MR LOEWENSTEIN: We would oppcse t h e a p p l i c s t i o n f c r adjciurnment on

a number of grounds, y c u r H r n ~ ~ u r . My l e a r n e d f r i e n d makes

re fe rence t o t h e p e t i t i o n having been se rved cn h i s c l i e n t

a few weeks ago) n ~ me r weeks agotr I t h i n k were t h e words

u s td . I r e f e r ycTur Hcncur t r t h e a f f i d a v i t of s e r v i c e of

t h e p e t i t i c n when it i s depc~sed t c by M r Hammcnd i n t h a t

a f f i d a v i t i-f l 9 September t h a t t h e p e t i t i o n was se rved c,n

14 Septeinber c,f t h i s yea r a t 7.05 c f c l 1 , c k i n t h e fc,renccn.

S( t h a t September, indeed st me c e r t a i n l y , irlscf a r a s t h e d e b t ~ r i s ccncerned,

we w ~ u l d submit he has had ample oppur tun i ty si:lce

seven weeks alrnc,st, i n which t o

i n s t r u c t t h o s e i n s t r u c t i n g niy l e a rned f r i e n d , Indeed,

I am one, t h a t i t has been a cc,urse i n s t r u c t e d t h a t t w c ct!ier m a t t e r s f low f r o a t h a t :

c f ccnduct adopted by t h e

d e b t c r i n seek ing adj:,urnments when he i s f a c e d w i t 5 any

proce~:d ings which perhaps he W: uld regard :is unsavoury : ~ r

u n s n t i s f a c t o r y t c him.

HIS HONOIJR: I am bc:und t c pc3.n-L ~ u t tc y-)U t h a t I m u s t d e a l wi th

t h e s e a p p l i c a t i o n s cnly on evidznce, If yciu have scrne

f a c t s ycu want t c r e l y upcn,	I wbuld need t c have evidence
of them, you see .

MR LOEWENSTEIN: I cc uld r e f c r ycu r .Iic,nc u r t c an 2ffidavi-t I w 2 s gc ing t c , ccme t c t h a t y ~ , u r Hc~ncur. Perhaps if

sworn by

M r Savage i n Supreme Court proceedings , 1977, 52069 i n

which	t h e	p l a i n t i f f	was	t h e	p e t i t i c n l n g c r e d i t o r	i n t h i s
mat te r .

MRKD4.M: I ob jec t t o my l ea rned f r i e n d r e f e r r i n g t o an a f f i d a v i t i n

t h e supreme c c u r t . F i r s t l y , L have n ~ a co2y of t t h a t

before me; s ec rnd ly , i f it i s m a t e r i a l on which your

Honcur	shculd r e l y it	should be	an	a f f i d a v i t f i l e d i n t h i s
c o u r t .

BWH/M/2b	MR KIMM
Savage	MR LOEWBNSTEIN

l	7	''E
HONOTTR: MR LOBWENSTEIN: Yes, M r Ri rnm, M r ~ , < ~ e w c n s t c i n ?

It wculd be rny submission, if I can l e a d ev idence ,

w!I~c:'~ I be l idve I 63x1~ vf win:lt t h e ddbtor hrLs sworn t o i n

proceedings on c a t h , 2nd t e n d e r t h a t a f f i d a v i t , t h a t I can

on thcit b a s i s r e l y un t h a t matt:ri.nl bt.fc)re your Honcur a s

t o t h e course c f ccnduct which has been ndcpted by t h e

d e b t o r , which w ~ u l d seek t o persuade yc7ur Honour t h a t t h e

ad j ciurnment should nc t be granted. l

HIS HONOUR: I t h i n k i t nay be b e t t e r i f we prc,cecd by s t a g e s .

I f you gc, i n t h e f i r s t p l a c e , t l t h e t ? s k of p i ~ t t i n g t h e

evidence bef:?re me, and t h e n when we s e e t he cutcc;me o f

t h a t we can decide whether y:u have a b c s i s on which t o

make a submission.

MR LOSWETJSTEIT\J:: What I was seeking t c , pu t t o ycur Iicncur i s t h a t t h e r e

has been a ccu r se o f ccnduct adcpted by tine d e b t o r over t h e

y e a r s , and c e r t a i n l y s ince l a s t y e a r , of seek ing

adjcurnrnents when ma t t e r s have been brought i n t h e supreme

c ~ u r t i n r e l a t i c n ti proceedings. It i s p a r t o f those

proceedings which has brcught abcut t h e p roceed ings today.

We would submit t c your Hcnc u r t h a t t h e deb to r

ought n c t t o be granted t h e adjcurnment. The deb to r has

had, a s I say , s ince 14 September t c adv ise bo th t h c s e

i n s t r u c t i n g r i l ea rned f r i e n d and my l e a r n e d f r i e n d

M r K i m m - - -

131s HONOUR: I f I might i n t e r r u p t you f c r a m r ment and gc back t o

M r K i x m .

M r Kimrn , t h i s i s ~f c::urses I need hard ly s a y ,

n c t a preceeding s s a i n s t y ~ u , it i s n proceeding aga ins t

y s u r c l i e n t . It n ~ w appears y ~ u r c l i e n t was se rved wi th

t h i s p e t i t i o n cn 14 September and I t h i n k I m u s t have

r ega rd t o t h e s i t u a t i o n , at l e a s t t c a l a r g e e x t e n t so

f a r a s it concerns ycu r c l i e n t , a s d i s t i n ~ t from t h e

p o s i t i o n i n which ycu and t h e gcntleinan i n s t r u c t i n g you

f i n d ycu r se lves .

It i s f c r yc,ur c n s i d e r a t i o r l , l t h i n k , i n t h e

l i g h t c,f t h e time t h a t has e lapsed t c dec ide wt?ether ycu

wish t c c a l l your c l i e n t t c o f f e r any e x p l a n a t i o n a s t o

why i t i s t h a t t h e gentleman i n s t r u c t i n g you ctmes i n t o t h e

m a t t e r scl l a t e .

MR KIMM: Ycur Hsncur, I w ~ u l d wish t c spec7.k t c l my c l i e n t a s t o t h a t .

I am c l i e n t has had only able tc l say g e n e r a l l y from try i n s t r u c t i o n s . l!4y

i n t h e p a s t few rncnths - - -

HIS HONOUR: M r Ki tnrn , I t h i n k I shc;uld make t h e same obse rva t ion

t o ycu a s te Mrhewens te in . The r i g h t ( ~ r d e r of

prcceeding is: ge t i n ycu r evidence and t h e n make you r

submissi.cn, Wculd you l i k e ncw t c speak t . ~ your c l i e n t ?

MR KIMM:	I would, i f yGur Hcncur w!:uld pardon me.
BbJH/E/ 3b

S 3-v age

:;IS I I O N C U E r if i i W, u ? d Zikc Icavc t h e ccu& to

speak t o y o u r c l i e n t , and do not be under any p r e s s u r e ,

t h e r e i s nr lqurry.

(Counsel l e f t t h e c c u r t wi th t h e deb to r )

MR KIMM:	I am	indebted t o year Hc!ncur f o r t h e time al lowed t c i speak
wi th	my c l i e n t . Ycur Eoncur, I propc se t, c a l l evidence, f i r s t l y ,

t c c a l l t h e g2ntlclna.n i r l s t r u c t i n g me, M r Shacklock,

and t h e n I prc pzsd ts c a l l my c l i e n t , M r Savage.

HIS HONOUR: Very w e l l , I w i l l h ea r t h a t evidence.

E'iXJ!ER	DAVID SHACKLOCK, sworn:
-

MR K I M k : What i s y c u r f u l l name?---Peter David Shacklock.

Are ycu a p a r t n e r i n t h e f irrn cf McCaffrey and Shacklock, S c l i c i t o r s ?

---I am,

And	ycu	a r e a b a r r i s t e r Vic tc r ia? - - - I	and	s o l i c i t o r o f t h e Supreme Ccurt	of
am.

(Continued cn page 8 )

B W H / M / ~ ~	P.D.	SHACKLOCK, XN	1/11/78
S av age

MR K YOUP firm c a r r i e s on p r a c t i c e a t 248 S t a t i o n S t r e e t ,

Moorabbin?---Thatt S c o r r e c t ,

You a r e t h e s 9 l i c i t o r f o r t h e d e b t o r , J o h n Thomas Savage?---Yes.

1	Have you	a c t e d f o r Hr.	Savage f o r 18 months o r two years?---Yes,
l

l I have ,

Y s u a c t e d f a r him i n r e s p e c t of' p r o c e e d i n g s i n t h e supreme c o u r t

be tween M r . Savage and. G e n e r a l P l a s t i c s P t y . Ltd.?---Yes.

Can you ? e l l t h z c o u r t whc-D t h e p e t i t i o n i n t h i s mat,ter+ f i r s t

came t~ ynur knowledge?---Some weeks ag3 I r e c e i v e d a

t e l e p h o n ~ c a l l froin M r . Savage an3 i n t h e c o u r s e o f

t h a t telephone c a l l he i n d i c a t e d t o me t h a t t h e p e t i t i o n

!lad b e z n c o n v e r s a t i o n s e r v e d on Urn, A s I r e c a l l t5e t e x t of' t h a t

i t was such t h a t I i n d i c r - ~ t e d t3 him t h a t

he would have t o c ~ an3 ~ s e e me e ab9ut i t . S u b s e q u e n t l y

I h e a r d n o t h i n g from him on t h a t p o i n t u n t i l Octob2r .

He d i d i n d i c a t e t o me i n a r o t h e r t e l e p h ~ n e c . ~ n v e r s a t i o n

t h a t	he	was	t o	a t t e n d m e e t i n g s	o f	G e n e r a l P l a s t i c s P t y .
L td*

C r e d i t o r s t m e e t i n g s ? - - - C r e d i t o r s t m e e t i n g s and an a n n u a l m e e t i n g ,

I u n d e r s t a n d . i n d i c a t e d I n t h e c o u r s e 3f t h o s e c o n v a a t i o n s he

ta me t h a t he was g c i n g t o a t t e m p t t3 c o n v i n c e

G e n e r a l P l a s t i c s o r t h e scheme a d m i n i s t r a t o r t h a t t h e y

not p r ~ c e e d w i t h t h e p e t i t i s n . Subsecjuer l t ly he t e l e p h o n s d

me, I t h i n k a b ~ u t 1.0 d a y s ago. I t was on t h a t o c c a s i o n

I f i r s t ; t h i s d a y , r e a l i s e d t h a t t h e p e t i t i o n was r e t u r n a b l e on

I i n d i c a t e d t o him t h e urr;ency o f t h e m a t t e r .

He a r r a n g e d and 1 (:3uI-d n a t kezp t o s e e me on Thur sday l a s t i r l t h e a f t e r n o o n

t h a t rnetlting and I g o t i n s t r u c t i o n s

a s much a s I c=l l ld Dn Ii ' r iday rriorning l a s t a t abou t 8 o f c l o c k .

When d i d you t h a t F r i d a y o r on s e e k beevl J'i5nday but, I h:, r e t a i n c o u n s e l i n t k mnt ; te r? - - -Ei ther Dn

t h a t Monday and I b e l i e v e i t may have

ail1 a b s ~ l u t e l y c e r t a i n n3w.

You and M r . Savage had a czinf'erence w i t h me, ;nJ3uld you t e l l

h i s E!:)nc)ur when that; was?---That was a t p.m. y e s t e r d a y r

Lire you t;ble t h i s m a t t e r t:, t:, t e l l h i s ITonour when p a p e r s werc f'irst d e l i v e r e d i n

counsel?---At t h e same t ime .

MR. LI3EWEXSTEIP;T: The re a r e a number :~f m a t t e r s . T h e r e h a s b e e n

a m u l t i t u d e o f documents s e r v e d i n t h e supreme c o u r t

p r o c e e d i n g s , have t h e r e n ~ t ? - - - Y e s , 't;her? have..

And i t ~roulc i b e f a i r t o s a y , would ft n s t , t h a t your c l i e n t w3uld n&

b e a n o v i c e i n r e l a t i o n t : ~ 33cuments t h a t were s e r v e d i n

r e l a t i s n t o c o u r t p roceed ings? - - -Tha t i s so.

FW/LS/lb 8 P. D. SHACK W CK , XP\T l/ 11/7 8

S av age XXN

K? LOEW?3NSTEIN: And i n d e e d y u p r e p a r e d , d i d y.su n o t , an

a f f i d a v i t f o r your c l i e n t i n t h e p r o c e e d i n g s o f G e n e r a l

P l a s t i c s P t y . Ltd. a g a i n s t J o h n TL;ornas Savage and

Vindm? P t y . L td , i n a c t i o n IYo. 5206/77 where M r . Savage

swc~re an a f f i d a v i t t h a t h e h a 3 beer! s e r v e d w i t h documents

and h2 was n o t f a m i l i a r w i t h t h e p h g t o s t a t copy of

33cuments s z r v e d 3 n him a s i t was a b i t i l n i ~ s u a l f o r him

t3 g z t tape?---'i'hac a d 3 c u r n ~ n t i n t h a t .?3rln r a t h e r t h a n w i t h a g r e e n

a f f i d a v i t was i n r e s p e c t 3f' an amended

s u p r z n e court , w r i t whszTJind3m was j o i n e d a s a d e f e n d a n t ,

You r e c a l l him :;:~ying t h a t , $ 3 you?---Yes, I d3.

Do you r c c a l l ~ h 2 n f a c t t h a t he was p i n g t c ~ i t was th:,t Mr. Caage s p ~ k e t o you a b o u t t h e

t h e s e m e e t i n g s s r t h j s meet ing?

---Do I r e c a l l ?

Yes ,	when	i t
was , t h a t rncet ing. t h e b e g i n n i n g o f O c t 3 b e r ? - - - I t was s s n e d a y s b e f o r e

I c a n n o t even r e c a l l t h e d a t e a f t h e

m e e t i n g a t t h e msmsnt.

I f I p u t i t t o yo~1. tGI:it t h 2 scheme ti . ,e mee t ing i t s e l f was on 10 O c t o b e r ,

o f c r 3 d i t 2 r s i n r z l a t i ~ n 63 G e n e r a l P l a s t i c s

P t y . L t d . , wz~ul-d th::t mean g o l ~ s p ~ k e 53 him a week o r

some d a y s p r i o r t o that?---S:me d a y s p r i o r t o th:1t9 yes .

HIS IIONOUI1;: T h e r e a s t~ w h e t h e r i s a n a s sumpt ion i n t h a t q u e s t i a n , M r . Loewensteiin, I

t h * w i t n e s s f - e l s , when yeu p u t t h a t

d a t e	t o h i 1 : , t h a t	t h a t	a p p r g x i m a t e l y	W3u.13	r e p r - s e n t	t h e	i
d a t e ,	l

MI(. LOZT!JJEnTST1311.T: Y e s , I a c c c p t t h ? t , you r I I ~ n o u r , and p e r h a p s

t h e \.;ay i t was (answered f o 1 1 3 w s t h e a s sumpt i an t h r ~ u g h .

HIS iiOT;OTJR: I w ~ u l d l i k a t 9 b e c l e a r t h ~ i t i t 39es ,

NR LOE'C.'C.IENSTEIM (To :$ii t n e s s ) : Nay we go back :me stzp f u r t h c r ?

f i r e y:~u awarc: t h ; t t h e me- t ing was :>n 10 October?---I

c a n n o t remernb:s.r t h e d a t e c,f t i l e mee t ing b u t I do know

i t was h e l d i n October .

And i t is yDur b e l i c f a r 3 un3crs tandin t ; t h a t f?r s3me d a y s p r i o r

t.1 t h ~ t m e e t i n g , v h a t e v e r i t s d a t e lbr3s, M r . S a v a e e

spcIke t;c, y3u a b d u t i t ? - - - -Y ; s , i t c 9 u l d have b e e n ane d a y ,

t w 3 d a y s , o r t h r e e ,

HIS HOISTOUR: M r . Durack , yau do n 3 t need t 5 ask any q u e s t i o n s ?

l

HIS TICITOUR: D 3 y3u want t 3 re-exarcine, Mr. Kimm?

l

MR KIPIM: Thz re i s :Ins ques t i c ln I :!hol;i.3 have azaed ,

HIS I'IOITOUR:	Y 3 u a sk	f o r l e a v e r ~ n	t h e	u s u a l	t e lms?	1
FW/U/2b Savage

H I S E-ICl';iGLrEt: Any ~ b ; i e c t i ~ n ?

M 3 1tIMM (T3 ~ii t n e s s ) : M r , Srv,.~;;e when JTDU were t a l k i n g t 3 him?---No, Mr. Shack lock , were you handed a c3py s f

t h e c r e d i t 3 r s V pe t i t i 3 n an3 s u p p o r t i n g af l i c l - jv i t s by

I have

nzver seen thoc;c q>cum.nts,

And c r ~ n s e q u e n t l y ygu were ngt a b l e L:? pr3vi.de me rdith c o p i e s l a s t

night?----'~.'h:~t i:; c ~ r r e c t ,

MR LOEWENSTEIX: Y s u s ? w Mr, Sagage , you t313 u s , a t 8 a.m.

l a s t Friday?---Ycs.

InSas any a t t e m p t made 3r ;,ny cc)mmunic~,tisn sough t w i t h e i t h e r t h e

s ~ l i c i t o r s f a r t h e p e t i t i o n i n g c r z d i t o r o r a l t e r n a t i v e l y

any s e a r c h gS +,he r e g i s t r y c ~ f t h i s c ~ r t made i n ~ d e r

t~ 3 h t a i n a c3py?---ND.

HIS BOITOUR: MR KIMM: No, N 3 r e - e x a m i n a t i c ~ n , M r , Kimrn?

HIS HONOUR: Y 3 u may l e a v e t h e w i t n e s s bsx?---Thank you.

( THE id1 TNESS W1 THDIIEW)

J O H N Tl1OMA.S SAVAGE, s w ~ r n:

MR KIPIM: Y ~ u r f u l l narnc: i s J : ~ h n T h m a s Savage?---Yes.

You ar;? t h e J o h n Thornas Savage named 2s t h e d ~ 5 t 3 r i n t h e s e

pr=,csedint;s?---I am,

Ycix l i v e a t 114 Reach R ~ a d , qandringh,-m?---Y?s.

What i s yQur occupat ion?- - - I am a manager,

Wzre y ~ u se l 'ved w i t h a pz!;i t isr! ar73 o t h ~ r d3cumL::nts i n t h i s m a t t e r

on l4 September 1978?---Yes.

A f t e r y3u wsre s ~ r v e d w i t h t h 3 s e d ~ c u m e n t s whst d i d y9u 33 i n

r e l a t i ~ n t3 t h m ? Anything?---I havz b e e n w i t h o u t a

p l a c e ~f b u s i n z s s , 1 have b::?n :qcting 3 c c a s i 3 n a l l y in

a c o n s u l t a n t t s g e t h e r ' c z p a c i t y and 1 have b e e 3 t r y i n g t 3 keep

my a f f a i r s p r e t t y w e l l 3 u t 3f a b r i e f c a s e .

I have had v a r i g u s 3 p r e t t y ~ u b s t a n t i a l s e r i e s sf ci:~curn?nts o f

t y p e s d e l i v e r e d anJ s e r v e d t 9 me i n t h e m a t t e r

my f i n a n c i a l pr3blerJls a v e r t h e l a s t 18 rngnths,

FbJ/LS/3b	10	P.D.SHACKLOCK,XXN	1/11/78
Savage	JeT. SAVAGE, XN

l K.~i!Ibl: F 3 r i S th;:t what y ~ u s h o r t n e s s ) y:iu had t~ p u t them i n y s u r b r i e f c a s e ,

say?---Yss,

At t h e c r e d i t o r s f m e e t i n g r,ahic!.l Mr. S h d c k b c k ment ioned i n e v i d e n c e - -

y3u m-nti:)nsd t h e s e r v i c e ~f 2 p e t i t i 3 n t 3 IvTr. S h a c k l o c k ,

I t a k e it?---Yss.

Why d i d y3u c r e d i t 3 r s s mee t ings? - - - I no't c:jnvince t a k e i t ally f u r t h e r t h a n t h a t be:fX2re t h e a n n u a l and

h a 3 been h g p e f u l t h a t I c o u l d

t h e a d v i i n i s t r a t ~ r 2f t h e scheme 3f G e n e r n l P l a s t i c s

t h a t t h e b u s i n e s s :)f' c r y i n g t o b r i n g me i n t o bar rkruptcy

w 3 u l d s z r v e no u s e f u l p u r p 3 s e 2nd I a t t e n d e d t h e m e e t i n g s

and p u t t h i s t:) them. I had hoped u r i t i l t;hi.s m,2rning

r e a l l - y t h a t $he rn;l.bter c31113 b ? r e s : ~ l v e d b y a g r e e ~ e n t

be twecn u s . I !.12v2 o v e r t k c p a s t 18 m:~nths b e e n i n

csnti. .nu:?us - - - p e r h a p s n o t c 3 n t i n a 2 u s b u t c : )ns tan t

c ~ m m u n i c a t i o n w i t h my s o l i c i t ~ r , M r . S h z c k l o c k , and i n

t h e mass o f t h e s e t h i n g s thf la t have b e ~ n happen ing t o me

I p u t i t a s i d e au:d	l e f t i t t h e r e .	I	s t i l l d.2 n	~	kngw	t
where i t is.

Y 9 u a r e t a l k i n g a b n u t t h e p a p s r s , y=u s t i l l do n:)t know wherc tk

p a p e r s a re?- - -Yeso I d i s c u s s e d i t w l t h M r . Sh2ck lock by

t e l ephanz , ? .

Y3u a r e s a y i n g , a r e y w , t h a t ever! up tru, t h i s rnc:rning y ~ u h q e d t h a t

93me agreement c:)uld be reached be tween you and tin?

p e t i t i o n i n g c r e d i t ~ r ? - - - Y e s ,

Y3u 2 r e p u t t i n g f i r > a l l y t o M r . t h i s f o r w a r d a s a r z a s 3 n why y2u d i d n 3 t s p e a k

Shack lock ~ b ~ t h e u t m a t t e r u n t i l l a t e l a s t l

week?---Yes. I

CROSS-	SXA>'lIbiED EY	MR.	G 1 LLU~D:
7

PR GILUTZD: Mr. Savage, wher! you were s e r v e d w i t h t h e s e b a n k r u p t c y

p a p e r s :In 14 Se .p t exbe r 1978 d i d y3u r e 2 2 .them?---Yes.

And d i d y3u agrz t ' ~h7ith t h ~ c o n t e n t s :;S t h e p e t i t i o n , t h : ; t y:lu were

j u s t l y and t r u l y i n d e b t e d t 2 t h e company f o r $43,000

f a r msneys l e n t by t h e company t 3 yau?

M13 KII4i.k In n y s u b m i s s i 3 n t h a t i s nc:t a q u c s t i a n t h a t s h o u l d b e

answered i n t h e s e p r ~ ) c e e d i n g s , which i s 3 p r o c e e d i n g

s z 3 k i n g z n 2d j z ~ ~ r n m e n t o n l y , Whether 2r n 3 t t3is w i t n e s s

i s i n & b t e d 3r is asked i f h:? i s i n d e b t e d is a m a t t e r i n

my s u b m i s s i 3 n which s h s u l d be s s k e d a t a l a t e r s t a g e ,

HIS HOROUR: T h e r e i s s:>met,hing ~f a g r e y a r e a , M r . K i m m . Have you

a c ~ p y ~f t h e p e t i t i 3 n bef'arz y3u? Could sDme3ne l e n d a

c3py tc~ M r . K i m m . If you t u r n t 3 t h e n 3 t i c e , v h i c h i s t h e

t h i r d page g f t h e g r !~unds zf t h e p e t i t i 2 n , you w i l l

s e e t h a t i t c a l l s o n t h e 3 e b t ~ r tr, t a k e c e r t a i n s t e p s ,

y h d t w , ~ u l d y3u s a y if t h e appr3ach were made a s t3 w h e t h e r

y 3 u r c l i e n t i n t e n d e d t 3 deny 3r d i s p u t e any s t a t e m s n t s i n

t h a t p t i t i o n ? Y 3 u ss?, a s t h e m a t t e r s t a n d s , -the

p e t i t i ~ n i n g c r e d i t o r d 3 e s n o t k n ~ w wha-it y3u r c l i c n t q S

a t t i t u d e is .

FW/LS/kb 11 J.T,511VAGES XN 1/11/78

XXN

Savage C

MR KIPIM: Tha t is s3,

HIS ROTsOUR:: T h a t may hav? sxne b c a r i n g 3n the ques t i~n of

adj3urnrnent9 y9i1 understand?

FW/LS/jSb Savage

MR KIMPi: Yes yc,ur Hcncur. One c~f t h e re2scns fc~r t h e adjburnment

i s n. :xat tcr which a r i s e s c , u t o f t h e cc nfcrence yes t e rday .

We seek some s h c r t t ime i n which t c dc what i s r e f e r r e d t o

i n t h e f i n a l paragraph c f Mrs Savage' S , ? f f i d a v i t .

Mrs Szvagc has ind ic<a ted t h a t she i n t ends t i a s s i g n

$43,000-odd t o h e r husband.

l

HIS IIONOUR: I t ake t h e c r c , s s -~xamina t i c~n a t t h e incnlent t o be I

rnerely p rocccd in~ ; ti t h e po in t c f sctying, "Do yuu owe

tSe deb t?" . In 3 sense it :32y be t h a t t h e f i l i n g of t h e I

a f f i d - l v i t t f M~~r : ta rc t Mary Sxvg.ge g ives r i s e t c the l

~ u e s t i l r l dhe thcr ycur c l i e n t ~ t d ~ n i t s h e dobt ; dc you l

under s t and?

KR KIMM:	Yes yc.ur	Honc u r ,	I
l

HIS HOTJOUR	A t t he n1,:ment	I dc n ~ t	see	any	c b j e c t i c n t~	t h e	ques t i cn .	l
l

MR KIMM: If ycu r Hc.nc,ur t a k e s t h a t view I do not want t c waste t ime . 1

HIS HONOUR Yes M r G i l l a r d , I

MR GILLATiD ( t o wi tness ) : M r Stmage, r;ne c:f t h e d ~ c u m e n t s served on

ycju was e n t i t l e d " P e t i t ion1', i s t h a t c c r r e c t ?---Yes.

Para .2 of t h a t document a s s ~ r t e d t h a t you were j u s t l y and t r u l y

indeb ted t c t he ccmpanyg t h a t i s t c say , General P l a s t i c s ,

f o r t h e sum c f $ k 3 , ~ 0 0 be ing mcneys l e n t by t h e ccmpany

t c ycu f c r which scme judgment had been c b t a i n e d i n t h e

Supreme Ccurt cf V i c t o r i a on 20 J u l y 1978. When you

read t h a t , d id you unders tand what it meant?---I c c n t e s t e d

t h a t debt and was unsuccess fu l i n cc u r t .

You understcod. what para .2 c f t h e p e t i t i e n :neant when ycu read i t ? 1

---I dc n c t r e c a l l the paragraph i n t h a t d e t a i l .

I n any e v e n t , indeb ted t c t h e ccmpmy f c r $43,3359 and t h a t the company ycu c,btained a judgrncnt dc nc t d i spu t e t h e a l l e g a t i c n , dc you, t h a t you a r e

aga ins t you?---I di nt t d i s p u t e t h a t t h e

j u d g ~ e n t w y s t b t a ined .

Indeed, it was clbtained with t h e cc,nsent c f y c u r r e p r e s e n t a t i v e

M r B r i an C o l l i s c , f c ounse l , whc appearc~l ~n y c u r behalf

b e f c r e the Supreme Court ;n t h a t day, i s t h a t not so?

---Yes, i n c c n s u l t a t i o n w i t h ycu.

And a l s o i n cc n s u l t a t i ~ n wi th ycurself?---And. your c l i e n t .

i

Indeed, M r C c l l i s had a long c , n f t r e n c e wi th you ~n t h e da te p reced ing

t h e d a t e McInerney i n t h e Supreme Ccurt?---That cn which t h e m a t t e r c m c befclre M r J u s t i c e

i s so .

And a t t h a t proceeding y ~ u ccnsented t c . judgment be ing e n t e r e d f o r

$43,000?---yes, and you agreed t h a t t he ba lance o f t h e

debt was t o be ccn t e s t ed .

Yes, but we are on ly concerned wi th t h e $43,000?---Yes.

BWH/M/	I C	13	J . T o SAVhGE,	XXN	1/11/78
Savage

MR GILLARD: When ycu re:ld those f a c t s as a l l eged i n t h e p e t i t i o n ,

d id y,u ?!,rt.c w i t : ? thcl:;?---I >:reed with t he way t h ~ t it

i s w r i t t e n ,

It	f u r t h e r a l l eged	i n para .4	~f	the	p e t i t i ~ ~ n	th:nt:	1
l

"Within s i x ~ n t lnths bt.f::re t he p re sen t a t j.c:]n

c f t h i s p e t i t i o n , . . ( r c z d s ) . . . duly se rved

cn ycu cn t h e 27th day c f J u l y 1978tt.

Dc) yiU r e c a l l t h e pe t i t ic .n s t a t i n g that?---No,

Were yc,u i n f a c t se rved wi t5 a bankruptcy n c t i c e csn 27 J u l y 1978?

--- I b e l i e v e s c ,

DirJ. nc,t t h a t document r e q u ~ s t - - -

l

H I S HONOUR: It t o l e t t h e mpy be b e t t e r , r a t h e r t h a n seeking t o paraphrase i t , !

w i tnes s s e e i t , i

MR GILLAm: A s your Honbur p l ea se s .

(Tc wi tness ) : M r Savage?---Yes . Th is i s a f a c s i m i l e c,f t h e document served

cm ycu ~n 27 J u l y . Wc;uld you l c t c k a t t h z t document,

Have you Was t h a t served cn ycu a t yc u r hcne un c r about 27 J u l y 1978?---Yes, seen t h e o r i g i n a l c l f t h a t dr~curnent?---Yes, I be l i eve so.

l I

I be l i eve S(:.

Did ycu r ead t h e d ~ c u m e n t there?---Yes. 1

Does t h a t doc~lrnent nc t esk ycu t o pay c l u t t h e juil'grnent debt o f

S . . $40,000-cdd?---Ye S.

Did you r e a l i s e i f you i n f a c t did nc;t pay out the juclgnent deb t

y ~ u wi!uld t h i s ccur t?-- - l eave y s u r s c l f open t c be ing made bankrupt by

I be l i eve t h a t t h e preposition I was

t r y i n g t c have General P l a s t i c s accept was a reasonable

cne and I havc t r i e d tcl n e g c t i a t c w i th them t~ accept a

l e s s e r sum t h a n was agreed i n t h e n e g o t i n t i s n s between

y c u r s e l f	and	t h e	b a r r i s t e r t h a t	represen tod	me	a t	t h a t
t ime .

Wpuld one be c o r r e c t i n assumin{; from ycu r answer t h a t you d i d i n 1

f a c t app rec i a t e bankruptcy n c t i c e and t h a t y ~ u the g r a v i t y c;f t h e m a t t e r s s t a t e d i n t h a t

were dcinq t h i n g s t o t r y I

and clbviate t h e consequences of t h n t bankruptcy n c ~ t i c e ?---Yes,

I do nc t want t o be bankrupt ,

l l

Is i t c c r r e c t t o say yc,u i n f a c t have not paid t h e $40,000 - - -

HIS HONOUR: Dc ycu seek t c t e n d e r t h e document t c which you have

d i r e c t e d t h e w i tnes s f S a t t e n t i o n ?

ME GILLLlRD: Perhaps I cught t o do t h a t . I t e n d e r i n evidence

a f a c s i m i l e Jchn Thcmas Savage, on 27 J u l y 1978 a t h i s home, o f a dc!cument which was se rved on t h e w i t n e s s ,

and

e n t i t l e d r'Bankruptcy Notice",

BWEI/M/~C

Savage

HIS HONOUR: You have seen t h i s , have you, M r Kimm?

MR KEQk 1 t h i n k I have sc-cn i t ; y e s I h:~vc.

IZIS IIONOUR: It m,ay be mark(?:! a s <an 2 x h i b i t . 1

EXT1Il3Iz ETIHIBIT l~ ... Fncskc i l e ::f bnnkruptcy n o t i c e

sc rvcd cn John Thinlas Savage

l

MR GILLARID: l i f t e r you r cce ive3 t h e bankruptcy p e t i t i o n you phcned 1

ycur s c l i c i t - r , f\4r ShEacklc$ck, i s t h a t c c ~ r r e c t ?---Yes.

l i f t e r t h a t phone c a l l you attenl?cc! a. meeting c f t h c scheme

c r c d i t c r s un4er thi; schejae nr rnn~c :ncn t which c p e r a t e s i n I l

r e spec t c , f t hc p t? t i t ic i?er i n t h i s c a s e , Gcncra l P l a s t i c s

P t y Ltd?--	YCS.	l
I

You were ab le t c a t t e n d t h a t meeting a s 3 proxy f o r y ~ u r wife , who

i s owe'l s ~ m e	$80,000	by	General P l a s t ics?---.Yes,	t h a t i s
c c r r e c t .

That meeting wes he ld , was i t n c t , c;n 10 Octcber 1978 a t t h e c f f i c e s

cf t h e c h a r t e r e d accbuntan ts , JYessrs F e l l and S ta rkey?

---Yes,

A t t h a t meeting, was a motion rncved wh;sreby the creditors were

e n t r e a t e d t b i n s t r u c t t he compmy t c witlidraw the

bankruptcy proceedings a q a i n s t ycu?---Yes.

And you i n f a c t seconded t h a t rnoticn, i s t h a t ccrrect?---Yes.

l

I n suppcr t cf t h e mcticn, diil ycu nc t address t h e meeting f o r scme

25 minutes o r sc,?---Yes. I

During t h e Cr u r se ( f t h a t meeting, d id yc u s i \ t , - u t t he reasons why

t h e cbrnpany iugh t nilt t o procezd t o bankrupt; ycu?---Yes.

Frc$rn t h a t ev idence , wculd t h e c c u r t be c c r r e c t i n ,zssuming you

un:lerstcc;d t h e proceedings that were being t aken aga ins t

ycu i n t h i s c c u r t by General P l a s t i c s P ty Ltd?---Yes.

And ycu r e a l i s e cc n c l u s i c n th't ycu, the reby making you bankrupt ?---Yes. i f t he proceedings went t c b t h e i r a n t i c i p a t e d

t h z t a s e q u e s t r a t i o n c. r d e r wculd be rnade aga ins t

Did ycu ni.t f e e l i n thc se circumstances then i t was a mat t e r of scme

i m p ~ r t a n c e anLl thzlt yc8u cucht tc2 C L n s u l t you r s c l i c i t c r a s

s ccn a s pc s s ib l e? - - -~dc l l , I hzve rua1l.j n c t been c u t of

cc n s u l t a t i:,n wi th rr$ s ~ l i c i t ( n r g p r , ~ b a b l y tc t h e ex t en t

whereby hc hfis been henrtily s i c k c ' f me. It i s j u s t bad

I d id nc,t dcl it proper ly .

Indeed, t h e r e have i ng c r e d i t ~ r , been 2 number c f p roccc~ l ings wbctween t h e pe t i t i c jn -

Gcncral P l a s t i c s P ty Ltd, and y i u r s e l f i n

ano ther c( u r t ; i s t h n t not so?---I df n ~ t t h i n k General

P l a s t i c s shculi? h w e any argument abcut my c n d e a v ~ u r s i n

t h e v a r i o u s	c c u r t s t o p r o t e c t	t h e cc npany	and	t c pay	i t s
c r e d i t o r s .

BWH/M/ 3c	7 5	J .	T	- SflVLlG.3, XXN	1/11/78
Savage

MR G1LLAfU.l: The ano ther c c u r t , z t the 11 th hcur , one ~ ~ i ~ h t q u e s t i c ~ n i s not put t c ycu f c r t h ~ t rcascn . It i s

put	c n t h e b y s i s t h n t c:urin(:	mcny	of t h lsu	proceedings i n
s~ay , ~ Y U have

c?ppenrerl bc fc r e t%e c c u r t : r hzve sc,rLec,nc r ep re sen t you,

2nd sc ught -7.n adjc u rn~ i~en t i n r e s p c t t f t b . se p r ~ c e e d i n g s l

Dci ycu agret: w i t s ) t h ~ t c~mulent?---nT~~.

Take t h e prcceec!in~<s when t h e company w2s seeking f in; : l befc re 14;lster S a r k e r c-n 28 February 1978,

juc:gr!xnt 2gains t y ~ u .

You ha,? been , , iven scme t h r e e n t h s in which h: examine

t h e bc 1 k s f 2ccount ccn(?ucte,l by Gencr:ii P l a s t i c s P t y Ltd

f o r t h e purpose t f ga th~r ' in : ; evidcnce t conbcst those

procecclings aqa ins t yc U . D i d ycu nct L;~I 27 F e b r u ~ r y 1978

t h e day f c r Genescl 2 l ~ s t i c s before 28 Tebruary, infc,rnl t h e s c l i c i t o r s a c t i n g

t h a t ;I/(-u wanted an niljcurnment?

---Prc bably.

And was not t h a t Master Barker , appl- ica t ic n for ad j<\urnrnent h c t l y c , n t e s t e d before

w i t h t h e r e s u l t t h a t ycu were n c t g iven an

ctd>c\urnment?--- I hnve anct h e r prcblerr, anrl t h n t i s cc s t S.

My means . f G t n e r a l P l a s t i c s . inccn~e was dcne awqy wi th by t h e a c t i c n s o f

They a r e i n a f t r t u n a t e s i t u a t i o n where

t h e i r c c s t s Can be met out c f t h e csmpany's j.nc~me; I

m u s t f i n d them ,,ut of my cwn endcavc urs. That has tempered

my a c t i c n s i n regard t o l a s t minute s i t u a t i c n s .

Again, d i d y ~ u nc t Master Barker 2.gains-t you, when it came ._:n f z r hea r ing seek t c ad j ( u r n an appea l from 7. dec i s i rm made by

scme t w c mlnths l a t e r before I\lr J u s t i c e McInerney i n t h e

Suprem C( u r t ?---I cannot r e c a l l .

Did ycu not i n s t r u c t yc;ur counse l cn t h ? t cccas ion t h a t you wanted an

'djciarnment f t h e a2pal?--- I cannot r e c a l l , but if you

have t h e f a c t s t h a t w c u l j . be t h e ca se . Ycu imply my

purpcse i s t c ccxntinually achieve ad j cu rnadn t s , and t h a t

i s nc t so.

Ycu s3y it i s a f a c t ycu m e nc t able -tc w i s e thc n~cney i n s u f f i c i e n t

t ime s c 7s t c p r cpe r ly b r i e f y i u r lawyers i n proceedings?

---Muney, and t ime , cn my c,wn p a t .

(Cc:nt inuu 3 ::!n page 18)

BWEI/M/ 4c

Savage 16/17 J .T a SAVAGE, XXN 1/11/78

PR G1LLLElH.D: Y 3 u s t a t e d t 3 t h e c 3 u r t a s your ~ c c u p a t i o n t h a t

ygu a r e a manager?---Correct ,

Has t h a t i n f a c t been tak i -ng up y Q u r t i ine i n t hs . l z s t f e w months

3r s3?---YZS.

What cl? 1 . 3 ~ manage?---I Cinr ren t ly a c t a s a c 2 n s l l t 3 n t i n some i n s t a n c e s .

I am n o t e m p l ~ ) y e d a t t'e ~f l~~rnen t .

Y:>u s. t ;atc j l thal; y>u have n:~t, 5ad t ime l 5 3 k a f t e r ygur a f f a i r s

w h ~ n ygu werz s o Employed. Did t h a t p r e v z n t y3u fr3m

a t t e r i d i n g t 3 tlclesz p a p e r s which have b s z n s e r v e d 3n

y3u b y t!:ie p e t i t i , s n i n g c r e d i t 3 r , Gz-neral P l a s t i c s P t y ,

Ltd.?---Yes yes .

Wh3 w2r.c;. y ~ u empl9ycd b y , wi?at was tb-e name sf y3ur ernplr>yer?

-- - - dlly?

HIS t-jGI\IOTJi2: I 52g y J u r pcrd;n?---Shsuld I answr:r. t h a t c j u ~ s t ~ i g n ?

Y z ~ u s a i d "Why?"?---1,dhy i s h? a s k i n g m,- s u c h a cjmcsti3n?

The re i s n 3 ob J e c t i o n t 3 t!;e y!~est i : , r l ,

M2 ICZMM: I t a k e 3 b j e c t i ~ n t..) t h e yuest i :?n.

H I S 4TC.lJ?OU11: On w h a t g r ~ u n d ?

MR KIMM:: I n my submiss i -n i t i s n o t r e l e v a n t f c r t h e p u r p m e 3f

t h e rn:.itter nQw bef:)rz your H:~n. , ,ur , The c lues t inn b e f 3 r e

yzu r 9 3 n a u r i s w!:ictl?er y3ur :i>r?.:)ur sh3lnlci g r a n t an

adj2urninent. . In my s! lbmiss i3n i t i s 831; r? l t7vant t 3

cr2ss-cxa; ; : ine t h i s w i t n e s s a s t 3 h i s ?mpl3ymeint0

HIS TCT'TOUn; I. I;i.iink i t i s ;l pr-)per ~ u e s t j - s n and t h e w i t n c s s 3h3u ld

answer it.

TFIE i/JI:i'lJTXSS: I hcve b e s n vorlcing f3r a f a m i l y c.o::ni.pat-!y t!Iat is

i nv3 lve3 i n "he p r i n t i n g i r i 5 u s t r y .

MR GILISi;1D: I s this J. H. Savage P t y , Ltd.?---J. Savzge and

b'lns P t y . L t d ,

And -t!lst B u t y3u s a y y3u firm c a r r i e s 3n i , u s i n e s s 3 s a p r i n t e r ? - - - T h a t i s c ~ r r e c t ,

Up u n t i l a b a u t ,J y e a r ag3 y r : ~ did n o t t a ! ; ~ any ~ c t i v e p a r t i n

t h e c? f l ' a i r s 3f t!-l-~t company e x c e p t a s a s h a r e h ' l d c r , d i d

y;u?---And a d i r z c t 3 r .

h-v? t a k z n a m3re a c t i v e p a r t o v e r t h e l a s t s ix T

e i g h t rn:~nths?---Yes.

Has t h a t . p r even ted y3u frsm a t t e n d i n g t 3 3r l o 3 k i n g a f t e r y3ur own

pe r sc jna l a f fa i r s? - - -ND.

18 J, T . SAVAGE 9 'XXN 1/11/78

MR GGILLLiD: Has t 5 a t p r s v i d e d yolu w i t ; r l any salary?---Yes,

Has t h a t s a l a r y bi.crr en3ugh f i n a n c e l . ega l a f i s ice i n r - l a t i o n

t o t!~es;. a f f a i r s? - - -X3t r e a l l y ,

Ii:i;S 13O'NOUTZ: T h a t , M r . K i m m , together w i t h t!it. e v i d e n c e o f

M r Shack l :~ck and ti-e a f f i 3 : l v i t 3f Mrs S a v a g e , i s t h e

e v i d e n c z :In which y3u b a s e ycJur a p p l i - c a t i s n ?

MH RIPfi~I.1: The ev idence upsri which I i1;ake my app l i cc . t i o r , , yes .

HIS YOITCUR:: Very w e l l .

Mr Lnewcnstein?

MR. LOENENSTEIN: I d,:) n 9 t p rop9se t a call any ev idence a t all.

My s u b m i s s i ~ ~ n ~rt?ul .d be t h ~ a t i f your I19n:)ur i s nsw h e a r i n g

s u b m i s s i ~ n s t h e m ~ t t e r s piut b e f s r e your Hrln9ur b y way o f

e v i d e n c e , b 3 t 3 from M r : ';hacklock an3 t l l ? d e b t g r , M r S a v a g e ,

a r e such t k j - i a t y s u r l i s n ~ u r sh:>uld n 3 t g r a n t t h e ad.jgurnrnent,

It i s q u i t e c l e a r i n my : s u b m i s s i ~ ~ n frsm M r :3avaget S

e v i d e n c e t h a t he n s t o n l y r e c e i v e d t h e p e t l t i o n and r e a d i t ,

ar1dun2erst3od t h e t!~ru:;t and fDrce and c f f e c t D?.' it,

b u t t h a t he a p p a r e n t l y assumed, wrrjngly a s i t .turni3d 3 u t ,

t h z ~ t he might bz able t 3 pe r suade t h c p e t i t i o n i n g c r e d i t o r

n2f t> pr3cec2d w i t h t h z p e t i t i 3 n

That was tF!e cvi : lenc? tha t , caxe f r ~ r n T4r Savage.

It bzcaxe c l e a r t!nzi.t on l 0 Oct-.iber wh:i-;t,ever he i-13ped

migh t happen w m 1 3 nst even. tuate . We th.let: have a gap i n

my : ;~~lsmissi :~n betweeri 10 Oc tabe r and I-2s.t Thursday, when

Mr Savage t h e n r e a l i s e 3 v e r y l a t e i n t h e piccce t h a t h e

was nsw f a c i n g a h e z r i n g b e f a r c y3ur Hsn::ur tx ia j r .

I n my s i~br r , i s s i sn t l i e re ?,as bc::n n ~ t h i n g p u t

b e f g r e your H Z ~ Z J U ~ a s t o why t h e ma.t.i;?r r;'iloul.d n 3 t p roceed .

There i s now, ve ry l 2 t e i n t h e p i e c e , ;?n s f f i d a v i t fr3m

T4rs Savage. There i s n:, e v i d e n c e fr3m Mr Sav:~ge and

i n d e e d I w 9 u l ; i c ~ n c e d e t h z t ther i l i s nuth,:)ri ty t k ~ : ? , t even

an ~ r c ~ i s s i s n t= g i v e p r 2 p e r nci t ice sh.julcl n ~ b a r t t h e d e b t 3 r

~n payment 3f c ? s t s , b u t c e r t a i n l y t h e r e hqs been a n5n-

c3mpliance wil;h r u l e 20 o f .the bankrup'ticy krules which

r e q u i r e s , a s y 2 u r H3nnur w i l l app rec i : ! t e , a n:)t ice t o be

g i v e n s3me embodied i n -the n a t i c e i s t o f i l e a form s e t t i n g onZ; t h r e e days b e f 2 r e . I n d e e d , t h a t n g t i c e a s

t h a t %he 3 e b t s r i n t e n d s t : ~ deny o r d i s p u t e t 5 e p e t i t i m

3r any cither g r x n d s Dn which he i n t e n d s t3 3 p p ~ s e the

p e t i t i n n . That :(as no t dgne. A s Mr. K i m m h a s r i g h t l y

FW/LS/2c 19 J G 1/11/78

Savage MR. LOEbJENSTEIM

s a i d t h e a f f i d a v i t was n3 t p r e s s n t e d t> me u n t i l s h a r t l y

b e f , a r e 10 5 t c l : ~ c k t h i s r n ~ r n i n g . On t;!.~at b a s i s , even

an .Lhc tirgurnent w!,~ich !-;is 5.?zn, put; bjr tl.l:)se whom

M r Savage h a s i t ? s t ; ruc t ed t h a t t h e y wcre n 3 t f u l l y armed

1;iith t h e p;:pcrs, i k l e n d s t:) t h e e v i d s n c e of Mr S h a c k l 3 c k

where i t i s yui t , c c l e a r tl~-?t no endeav:;ur was made t3

: )b t a in r3 c q ~ y fr:m t h e p e t i t i z n j - n g credj. t t3r9 S s o l i c i t o r s

m r i n d e e d have be3n c , u i t e rc.nSrily and e a s i l y cisne, fr:m t h e r e g i s 1 ; r y sf t h i s c s u r t , which c s u l d

The argument i n

my s u b m i s s i r ~ n t i q a t t h e c1ebt;c;r i s i n s:m? .:&ray p r e j u 3 i c e d

o r t h a t . h i s l e g a l a d v i s 5 r s a r z p r s j u d i c e d b e c a u s e t h e y

have o : ~ t h a 3 t h e p:~Ip?rs i s t.;!:!e r z s u l t :~f t h e i r Dwn d 3 i n g

and n::t b~ca i . z se ::f s:mr-tkiinc L> i;rhich c::i.ild be a t t r i b u t e d

t;o t h e p e t i t i : ~ n i n g c r e d i t ;r. IJnder Z;h:~ss c i r c u m s t a n c e s

the adj:!mrr:rnent, aff 'idc3.vit 3f Mrs s!i::uld n s t ;!c g r 2 n t e d .

HIS T1O"IOUR: ',5?1:11; d., yJu :3nJJ s h 3 u l d +;h? c ' J u ~ ~ ; ' S .itt i t u d e t 9 the

Gnvtlge? 1,s t!?e mcAtt::r s t - a rds h e r

s v i d e n c ? was u n c ~ n t r ~ 3 i c t e d i r l tk in:erl t1(e3%3ry s t a g e

we h ~ ~ v e r ezched .

MP LOEWENSTEIM: 'That i s ss ,

HIS IiONOTJR: I f I t h i s a p p l i c 2 t i s n . what were t~ s c c e p t h e r e v i d e n c e f o r t h e p u r p 9 s e s 9f

s f f e c t d~ ysu s a y i t shsulcl have

s n t h e :?riler which s l :1 .~u13 be made?

Y&. LOEIIJEWSTEIiI: If t h e c:)ns?quence :.:f t h e a f C i 3 z v i t i s t 3 b e a n

adjclurnment , and t h a t i s 5ne of t h e two l i m b s upgn . ~ j h i c h

M r K i m m s h o r t e s t p3s s ib l . e r e l i e s , thcm t,h:?t ad$ : ju r~men t sbr ju l3 be f c ~ r t h e

- p e r i d . I wau13 have t:) c s n c e d e ,

if c 2 n c e s s i 3 n i s n e c e s s a r y , t h a t t h a t may b e R csns;::ql;lence

a f i t , i f t h e a c t i s n i s ta l r sn zny f u r t h e r , o ! thur thari t h e

b ; ~ l d a s s s k t i 3 n s i n t!.?? sff i i i n v i t .

H	0	.
Thi' expr r>: l~q* s t e p s t 3 Icn? ,t;aken f n car.r>ying 3~zt k;?e i n t e n t i s n

L , i n M S o a v a g e 9 C( s a f f i d a v i t !a3l.?ld c a l l . f3r s9me

d r a f t i n g i n t h e f 3 r s t p l a c e , I irnagine.

Mn IQEiiJE1'LTSTEIN: n 3 t h e a m a t t e r which % a t i s T h a t , I w,21lld have n n t i c i p n t e d g w:)uZlA

rl.13 :l.d t a k z :any undue t ime .

HIS HOFTOUR: I s ~ m e t i m ? ~ f i n d t h a t p e ~ p l ? have 3 i f : r e r i n g i rnpressi r ins

2f what c.,rn2unts t : ~ l1 undue ";ime", clepending on w h e t h e r t h s y

17ave t , :~ 33 i t 3r t k ~ c : 3 th ; r s i d e h a s t s 33 i t ,

i LX)EWENSTEIN: P e r h z p s we a r e i n t h z f 3 r t u n a - L ~ p ~ s i t i 9 n of

s a y i n g t h a t i f my l z a r n e d f r i e n d 3r tI13sc i n s t r u c t i n g him

f i n d i t i s a t a s k which migh t ~ c c u p y th2n a l i t t l e h n g e r

t h a n they would w i s h , if thc7t wer? t~ b s t h s p 5 s i t i 3 n 9

t h e y migh t be acc~i11m33ated. i n s m e Sorm sr 3 t h ~ r e

HIS 0 Y,>u i t s h s u l d b e s a y t h a t any a d j ~ u r r m ? n t g r a n t e d :ln t h e b a s i s 2f

3f t h e s h ~ r t e s t p o s s i b l e t ime . T h a t a g a i n

i s n 3 t v e r y p r e c i s e ,

F1d/LS/	3 c	20	MR.	E,EN!3NSTEIN	1/11/78
Savage

LQEWENSTEIN: Let me t i g h t e n t h a t up. I was going t o s u g g e s t

$3 yzur J-I ;nc,ur c ' g h t dr ,ys , :tnd L s e e indeed t k q t y2ur

Han2ur i s s i t t i n g :>n 8 Nsvernbzr. Thzt I ~\~ , l r ,u ld hzve

t h z ~ u g h t w > u 1 3 h:ive been s u f f i c i s n t t i r i~c .

HIS HObTOUR: When t!32 i i intter comcs dz~srn t 3 t h s d i f f e r e n c e between

e a g h t drip xLnd 14 ;1:1ys i t j S z e t t i n g tr, :a f : : i r ly f i n e

p o i n t , i s n s t i t ?

MR LOE1dENSTEIbT: has inc2en 2 c n u r s z ;.f c:!ndu.ct I a c c e p t t h ~ , t , bu.t my ~i ;ubmiss i :~n i s th:.:t t h e r e

:;i:;ere r ~ t s n l y h:<;; tht?

p z t i t i 3 n beF3n 3 ~ 1 f'3,. .?t f : ~ r 3 c,:n::id e:rzbla tkfi1.z b u t ,

s e c . > n d l y , i n o r 3 ? r t 2 l k s ~ p t h e d e b t : j r , i f I c a n use a

c ~ l l o q u i & i s m , up t:i the m:::rk, h r hcis czjr?!e h z r e at; t h e

late:- s t a g e agn in i f I can CS{: s e e k i n g t h e i r~d . i lgence 3f t h e c a u r t and.,

FI ca11:>(;uL&isrn9 he i s g3ing t:j have t:,

p u l l a u t a l l tk :;t3ps ancl have h i s 1 ~ : g a l a d v i s o r s p u l l

3 u t a l l t h z s t l p s .

HIS XLOf;iOTJR: I t h c s re levar lce a s t:? tir~r.:t, on i \ r ! ~ i ~ ' f l I d 3 riot s e s k

t o be t h e judge , t h 2 t i s a m a t t e r fc~r y:)ur judgment, b u t

i t i s ,:lf sr:\me r e l a o a n c e as fa r . 3s t h ? :7,ssistat?ce t h e

c x r t cQ.n g a t becr71lse whqt I hava i n mind, s u b j e c t -L3

a n y t h i ~ g you want t r i p u t t o me, i s t;!lat I s h > u l $ g i v e a

directi.:.in -t;h::t t he 3 e b t : ~ r f i3 .3 3nd s c ~ ~ v ? any n s t i c e :,f

?pp3siti::i :Jn which he prcjaases tc: r c l y 2nd any a f f i d a v i t s

I n supp:jrt; :)f - t h a t n 2 t i c c w i t h i n b lank days - I w i l l p u t

i t t h z t way f:;r t h e >n.r)rn?nt.

I en.vis ;~,ze t h e t . t ha t wzuld i .nvglve, i f ' -the

pl-2.n s e t c ? u t i n Mrs Savage1 s aff icinvik i s e x c c u t ~ d ,

f i r s t :.f ..:l1 t h e ,:>xecuti::!n :~f th;-:t p l m rl,r13 t h e r:?liance

up9n i t s e x e c u t i s n i n t h e n s t i c e . The w t i c e ~f c a u r s e

w..:uld c z n t a i ~ ?,ny :jtirler gr:1un3 :,n w l . i c ! . > ,., t!:e d e b t ~ r s:)ught

t:; r e l y . Th-t n g t i c c and ~ 3 f f i d . v i t ,:r ~ ~ f f i d a v i t s w2uld

need t:; neucl t2 have a n 3pp:)rtur:it,y b e s e r v e d :in ygur c l j - c n t s and y r a r c l i e n t s might

~f f i l i n g qny material.. i n

answer W!-lick .t;hcy vrished,

HIS IiONOUfl: Sup-p~se I s h 2 l l h c a r Mr f s r t h t S ke ;f ; ~ r g u ! ~ z n t I wcre t I d i r c c t t h a t

t h e f i r s t s t e p b L t a k e n w a t h i n scvzri days - + I S t 3 which

Kim if 122 w ~ n t s tTj ,,(l;lr-.ss me i n

due c.?urse - h r w l2nt ; would y - u r c l i e n t x p n t f.!r any

~ n s w e r i n y a f f i d a v i t ?

LOElmNSTEIIPI!: I wr:uld thtn 'x t h r e e days wnul3. b e s u f f i c i e n t .

HIS HONOTJR: I f I d i r e c t e d tha-t any ~nswcsring a f f i d a v i t b c f i l e d

and s e r v e d w i t h i n n f u r t h e r t h r e e d ~ y s , t h ? w3uld

t a k e u.s i;= tk s i t u ; t i - n , t i3 p u t i t i n t e rms :,f dg.tes

which i s s ~ m c t i r i e s easier t3 f ' s l l ~ w , i l I werc t~ d i r e c t

t h a t the; f i r s t s t e p s be t8kcx-1 by 8 N-ivcmbcr i n s t e a d of

w i t h i n scven d a y s l t h 3 s 3 s t s p s werz ts be t z k c n by

13 N~vembcr bscnus? 2 f t h e wezkznd i n t s r v e n i n g - - -

l

MR. LOEWEIISTEIN: T h ~ t w:)1;11d b r i n g i t c-nvor i e n t l y t - ) 15 N3vcnbor , 1

t h e dzts r2y	1:-rnsd	f r i e n d sceks,	l
l

MH LOEWERSTEIE: Yes. I v 1113 a l s J acL*k p e r h a p s th: t w i t h i n t h a t

s e v - n clay p c r i i j d y2ur K \n ,~ur h ~ i n d i c r t e d , s s t h e p e r i g d

g i v o n t : ~ il-,: -1;bt r f f r t";, f i l . F n g ~f i~r?. q f f i d n v i t

an a f f ' i d ~ v i t - f ;M; -1s:' 5e fj led :.~iit;hin t h a t sevzn day

p e r i= cl.

HIS iJO1\TO1~'PL: ;?!'l::t i s a r~ac l : e , l : n n ~ : : t q u c s t i 3 r . '?'h2 c ~ u r t r , m E t i t ~ l e s d i r e c t s t h a t I

;:n - : f f i i ' ~ v i t of C.(?:\i?s b c f j l e d wh~r! t ' i ~ p 2 r t i e s hyve

ngrccmcnt t 3r-i i i p p l i c t i ;n ti, wi thd raw l

p n r)rfier th : i t tttl:+ p e t i t i : ) n b e ~ l i s ~ i ~ s e d b ~ ~ t i n h<: absence

3f such a state f r f f q i r s I (3- n 3 t t!?ink it i s f - l r t h e I

c c u r t t'3 l i r e c t tkic :feDt-lr whqt k i n d cjf ; ~ f f i d ~ v i t h e I

s h u13 f i l e ,

MR LOEWENSTEIN: I 2 c c c p t t h r ~ t , w i t h r e s p e c t , -perhaps .with t h i s

q u a 1 i f i c a t i : : ) n Z;h::it i n t h e c i : rcur i~s tances h ? r e I :m

cc)nc:irned t h z t c:;me 15 Ngvec!.:bc.r wh2t i^il>jT ,>iccur i s

s3me c J u r s e : ~ f means which w:;u13 :~f e v e n t s whic!; w i l l t h e n r e q u i r e an a f f i 3 e v i t

p s r h z p s i n -p:irt ~ n l y brin[: ,?bgut R

f u r t h e r a3j:)urnr;lent.

HIS HOBOUR: Yaur rnent i3n ) f tGlis h 7 s p u t N r Kir:,m ?n n ~ t i c e .

1.t i s :,ne t h i n g t:> put him ?u n 3 t i . c ~ b u t I t h i n k it i s

t:)3 much t:) 8 s k Ze t : ~ d i r e c t thi7t zri a f f i d f i v i t 3f' t h a t

kiuJ s h c u l i i b e sw:;rn i n t h c c i r c u m s t a n c e s o f t h i s c;:se,

DEkBNSTEIN: Save t h i s , w i t h rcs .p<:-ct , t h a t t r u e i t i s t h a t

y 3 u r B+:jnsur h->S i n ; l l i c ~ t e d t h a t Mr Kil?lrr! 2nd. t!2i;fse

i n s t r u c t i n g him ;.rc :]!-I r1r:tica. If y::.ur H : , n ~ u r i s n r ~ t

p repnr3d L:? g i v e a . : i r e c t i . . n t; t h a t e f f e c t which I

.w~uld seek 2nd u r s c JT ? u r I-I::)n3ur t:,, ~ 2 3 ~ perhr??:: y w r

H3nc.jur w,:?\;113 i:lake i t c l z ~ , r ':;,L tk3c Zeht ._ ; r 'th?,.?t if F?,

c e r t r a i n c:,urse c!f e v c n t s f ~ l l a w z c ? gr were r:rli~pted by

him thi-.t w;juLc! n e c e s s i t ;;%c s u c23 nr: ;-'ff i : l ; - ~ v i t b s i n g f i l e d .

HIS FiOTJOUR: I t h i n k t!ie ; ! i s e u s s i 3 n h?:: becn s u f f i c i e n t b u t I (-I:,

n z t k n ~ w y s t what t h e n:;\ t ice :;f 3ppt j s i t i c :n will c , - . n t a i n .

HIS 'rllONOUH: And 1 3~ n ~ t kn:)w t%,:ref3rt. if It i s 3 case i n which

i t W: u1:I be appr: p r i jt;: f: r th,. c L ) u r t t-J iaakc t h e

c r J z r y ~ u	seek .
Mr K i m m , 3:; y:)u v;nnt t:J :-,;Jdress me f u r t h e r

o n t h z t t j . ; n ~ t a b l e th; ; t W;~S intlicatec??

FW/ LS/ 5b 22 Mli IX)EmNSTEIN l / l l /78

Savnge (C2nt inue i i 3n page 22A)

HIS HONOUR: I w i l l g ive those d i rec t ions . The f i r s t d i r e c t i o n

i s on 3 November ?ad any answering a f f i d a v i t by

13 Noverrlber, with the f u r t h e r hearing of t h e p e t i t i o n

adjourned t o 15 November a t 10,30 a , :~ .

I think F t i s f3ir, M r Kirnrn, t o say t h a t while

your c l i e n t hqs sxcceeded i-n obtaining t h i s adjournment

he shoul-d not e n t e r t z i n any view t h z t i n c o ~ ~ s i d e r i n g the

a a t t e r f u r t h e r the cour t would not pziy very s t r i c t

a t t e n t i o n t o t h e 3~3,viduity displciyed by him i n r e l z t i o n t o

carrying o u t tE-12 directicl_rs t h ; ~ t hzve been given. I would

r e l y on YOSr t o r n ~ k e t h a t very c l e s r t o him.

MR KI?/F4: Yes.

MR LOEWENSTEIN: 1 would seek 3 consequenti:tl o rder f o r cos t s .

My le s rned f r i e n d has beer1 successful i n h i s f tpplication

but i t i s %is c l i e n t who o b t s i n s the indulgence 3nd I

submit t h a t i n those circumstances t h e c o s t s	should be
borne by him

HIS HON3UR: What do you sa.7, M r ICimrn?

MI.l K I M M : I ask t h a t c e s t s be reserved. This i s not 3 usual

f a c t u a l s i t u a t i o n wliich a r i s e s before your ITonour. It may

be t h z t your Bono~ur may fo.rm 2L d i f f e r e n t view s s t o

whether o r not i t S-~ould	r e l 3 . k	t o	the	,nat ter being	f u r t b e r
argued before yollr Honour.

HIS I-IONOUR: I'h you want t o reply, Mr ~ ~ o e c ~ e n s t e i n ?

MR LOEWENSTEIN: Yes, i n relctt ion t o t h a t whatever the outcorn of

t h e p e t i t i o n might be i n r ~ y submission t o d s y l s c o s t s a r e

rendered abor t ive i n s o f s r a s t : ~ i S matter i s concerned.

It i s ajourned an3 t he on1 reason i t i s not proceeding i s

not bec?use t o proceed but gurely because the debtor senks an indulgence. of the p e t i t i o n i n g c r e d i t o r not being w i l l i n g

(Continued on page 23)

FW/KW/~C

Savage

14R LOELdE3TSTEIN ( c c n t inuing): It i s pu re ly because t h e d e b t c r seclks

an indulgence. S c , i n any even t , i n yy submission t o

ad j cu rn t h e ina t tc r cn t h e b a s i s cf c c s t s being reserved

only p u t s t h e n a t t e r i n t hc meltin[; p o t , when perhaps eve ry

I ne t e n d s t c . c v c r l c f l i w 5 3 t 2ccurre:l t c f ley . I say t h a t

w i t5 nnc, d i s r e s p e c t t c yc u r 1 1 ~ n:,ur m(? t h e t r a n s c r i p t - - -

111s IIONOUR: I clc nc t t h i n k t h e r c i s 2ny ' I n n ~ c r JTC;[I w i l l allow me 1

t: lnpse i n t o t h , ~ t st:ite c f mind, l

MR LOEWNSTEIN: I W, m l c ! shc,uld be bcrne by t he d e b t c r . c e r t a i n l y U r:qe yc u r Hcln. u r t hxt t h e c o s t S

Tse indulgence i s h i s ;

nc n c t i c e has bt:en given anJ everythin!; t1i:i.t has been

scught t ccky has been :i r e s u l t d i r e c t l y c f t h c d e b t c r l S

clef n u l t i n nc,t cc x p l y i n ~ wi th t h e n c t i c c ?n:l he has now

obta ine , i the indulgence and i n my s u b o i s s i c n shrulc! b e a r

t h e c c s t s c f it.

HIS HONOUR: I t h i n k i t b e t t e r , because c f t h e p rc sen t s t a t e ilf t h i s

c a s e , nc t r e l a t i o n t o c o s t s 2,nd t c ?c intc- nny r e a s r n s ?t t h e p re sen t time i n

I ( i ~ make ail ~ r ( l e r e s e r v i n g t h e

c c s t s . I s t 9 e r e any ~ t h c r n13tt~r t h e p a r t i e s wish t o

mcnt ion? (NO MSPONSE)

I cc,uld perhaps ~ s k ycu t h i s I\ir Lloewensteint

a s a t p r e s e n t a;lvise \ ,L ycu prc;dc'se t o r e l y c n any

evidence c t h ~ r t han t h e eviclence ccn t a ined i n the a f f i d a v i t s

f i l e d anc! served i n suppor t c f your c l i e n t s p e t it ion?

MR LOEWENSTEIN: With t h e q u a l i f i c a t i i n 2s presently ~ . d v i s e d , I

would have thc u ght nct , ycur Ilc,ncur.

HIS IIONOUR: I f th:it c?ealing wit:: q u a l i f i c o t i c n arvli unted t c an i n d i c n t i c n t h a t

: c u wantci" t: r e l y c,n s cac th ing s l s e , t h e o r d e r l y way vf

t h i s c w t . w r u l i ? bc t c d i r e c t t h a t you dc t h a t

a s a f i r s t s t z p , becaus? if we r ec s ive c: n c t i c e of

cppp s i t it n cn t h e f i l c ::nd y011 thzn seek t f i l e scmetbing

C ~ S C , it makes tht. r n ~ t t z r r l , i sordcr ly .

MR LOEWEMSTEIN: Perhaps i f yc u r tizncur wculil p z r d f ~ n me a moment.

I am remindec: t h z t 1-iy q u a l i f i c a t i c n shc uld

perhaps r e l a t e t c t h i s aspec t . Y m r Hoi' u r w i l l s ee t h e r e

a r e twwc	c c u r t	f i l e s frcril t h e Suprcl:e	Ct1ur-b be fore yc~ur
flcns u r .

IlIS HOKOrrR They a r e n(:t befcre me, t h e y !:lay be i n you r hands.

There i s n very b i g d i f f e r e n c e .

MR LOEWENSTEIN: I accept t he d i f f e r e n c e and w i t h d r . 1 ~ riry comment.

It may ve ry w e l l be t h e pe t i t i c n i n 2 c r e d i t c r w i l l seek t o

r e l y eh a f f i t l a v i t m a t e r i a l m d t r a n s c r i p t cf what was s a i d

i n r e l a t i c n t c twc prcceed ings i n t?le Suprcnie Ccur t .

HIS H O N O U k Y L U have i n compartments. c,pened up a f a i r l y l a r q e ques t i on now when

ycu speak c f a f f i d n v i t n ~ a t e r i a l ~ n d t r a n s c r i p t . Take i t

A f f i d a v i t rnateri:ll - if lit i s an

BWH/M/ I cl

Savage

a f f i d a v i t f i l e d ~ n behalf c f y c u r c l i e n t ? l e t u s say f o r

t h e sake s)f d i s c u s s i c n , i n t h e Supremc C o u r t i n some chher

ac t ion , it i s not pn r t of t h e i na t e r i a l t h ~ t would

c i rd inar i ly be t r e ? t e d a s beinir beff;re me. 1 t h i n k if

you want t c . r e l y cn an affid::;it it s h ~ u l d be an a f i ' i dav i t

f i l e d i n t h i s p e t i t i p n i n t h i s 6::urt.

MR LOEWENSTEIN: Whnt I wc u l d seek t c ( !c : i s st.& f r c m your

Hdncur an o r d e r t h a t t h e & - k i t i::n;ing c r e d i t o r have l e a v e

w i t h i n t w , c? ays perhaps tl- f i l e an af f i d :vi t , annexing

c r r e f e r r i n g t c cc py Iccunent S and t r a n s c r i p t i n r e l a t i o n

t c , p rccecd inqs , 5206 c f 1977, gn:! I: t h i n k I can i n d i c a t e

now t h e o t h e r procet dings.

It one c,f 1977 being 9668, and twc i n r e l a t ic;n t!i. 1976 i s 1977 N':. 5206 and t h r c c cornpany f i l e s , I

ccmpany m a t t e r 9373 and cc mpany ma t t e r 94-73. l

HONOUR: Again ycu M r Loewenstein. spc,ke c f a f f i e a v i t s and t r z n s c r i p t , 1

It i s nct f c r nlis t c be c i v i n g I

a n t i c i p a t o r y r u l i n g s cn whether scmething y$- u rnay seek

h e r e a f t e r t o r e l y cn i n evidence i s admissLble o r n o t , i

but t h e d e b t o r i s e n t i t l e c l - - - If I ::ssurne fcir t h e

l2urpose c f argument t h i s l xa t e r i a l i s r e l i e d u;Jon i n l

s upp r r t of ycu r pe t i t i . cn , t h e s t r i c t y c s i t i c n i s , a s I

understand i t , it s h ~ u l d h8vc been served upon him wi th t h e

r e t i t i c n i n t h e ncrmal c c u r s c c ? f even t s . 1

P'iR LOEWETJSTEIN: It wcmuld nct be r e l i e d on i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e p e t i t i c n

bu t i n m a t t e r s r e l a t i n g t c a secondary l imb r a t h e r t h a n

m a t e r i a l on which the pe t i t ic;n i s based. Sc! tc; t h a t

e x t e n t , it seeks tc; oplpse t h e p e t i t i c ~ n , and wcjuld 6epend i n p a r t i n wh3t manner t h e d e b t o r

I am a.ssuming a t t h e

molnent i t mav ~ n l v be what has now been Poreshad:~wed,

Ti. t h a t exteKt I &c# net seek t o ev.ide y c u r Iionourl S

ques t ion . It nay l a r g e l y depend cn what l i n e of actii;n i s

adopted by t h e deb t c r , how f a r t h a t i s gc:ing tz be r e l i e d

on by t h e pe t i t i c jn ing c r e d i t o r .

HIS IIONOUR: There i s a ques t i cn I t h i n k ycu have t c determine:

d~ ycu y::urself wish t c f i l e and serve any f u r t h e r m a t e r i a l

by way c f a f f i d a v i t i n s u p , ~ c r t cf y r u r c l i e n t t S p e t i t i c n -

and t h a t i s a questic.n, a s I sny, f o r yQur d e c i s i c ~ n .

I f ycu d c , t h e n I th ink ycu sh( u ld d , t h a t befc,re M r K i m m

can be c a l l e d upc\n t o f i l e h i s nc t i c e o f c _ p c s i t i i n because,

p l a i n l y , he wc,ul2 have t o d e a l w i t h it. I t a k e y:)u t c be

t e l l i n g me	t h e r e	i s sc	me	m a t e r i a l t h a t	answers t h a t
de s c r i p t i cn .

MR LOEWENSTEDJ: That i s sc , yc,ur Honcur. I

ETIS H O N O U E Ycu ask rr~e ti. d i r e c t t h a t any f u r t h e r a f f i f a v i t s t c \ be

r e l i e d upcn by t h e p e t i t i c n i n g c r e d i t c r i n suppcr t o f t h e

p e t i t i c n be f i l e d and servcrl w i t h i n - - -

MR LOEWENSTEIN:	24 hours , on c r bef(.,re 5 p.m.	on 2 November.	1
BWH/M/ 2d Savage

HIS HOhOlIZ: B e f o r e 5 p,m. on illovember 2, 1978. You w i l l have t o

t u r n your ?nin6 t o t'r-c q u e s t i o n , Y r Loewenstein, a s t o

whether some o f t h e m a t e r i a l you r e f e r t o by way o f

a l lswering	my	q u e s t i o n s amount;	t o adrd L s s i b l e	e v i d e n c e	o r
n o t .

l

L O L l t n t e r t r z i r l my I a c c e p t t h a t , y o u r iio::\ur, t h z t i s a m a t t e r t h a t w i l l 1

s i c e o f t h e b::r t a b l e between now and tomorrow. I

1 K 1 1Jhat d o e s conce rn rile now i s what my ltiarnc:c? P r i c n d h a s

j u s t r a i s e d , learned! f r i e n d h < ~ s how t h ; t now d f L c ? c t s t n c t i m i : tL lb ie , My

r : . f e r r e d t o an a f f i d a v i t anncxi-ng o r

c x h i b i t i n g d f f ' i d a v i t s and t r~ r l : ; c r ip l ; S i r; t i; Su-,?rerxe C c , ~ ; r r t

i ;~att tr , , . T f t h o s c documi n t s havt t o bc r 3d and c ~ t ~ s i d e r e d ,

i t plc-~ces v e r y great d i f f i c u l t y i n c d r r y i n g o u t bhe r e s t

o f t h c ~ l e n t i o n e d . ti,lie t a b l e on t l i t . a a t t s which i i d w a l r t -ndy bcen

HIb KOhOUR: Are you t e l l i n g me you w m l d l i k e a per iod , stly o f

seven dzys ,	from November	3 ; i s t h a t what	you	a r z t c l l i n g
me?

KIi4.4: I undcr s tdnd t h e p e t i t i ~ ) r i i r : g c r c d i t o r p roposes t o L-ve

t h i s f u r t h t > r a f f i c z v i - t , o r afrr"id:;vits, r l i i t t l t ~ l e c ,xh ib i t s

f lied by 5 1;. m. t o~norrbw. Xy l e , l r n ~ d , f r i e n d h a s ~ r l d i c a t e d

in t h t c o u r s e o f a e d r ~ s s i n g y c d r I-ionour t h e f o u r Suprems

C o u r t a c t i o n s and r L f e r r e d t o a f f i d a v i t s and t l . ~ n s c r i p t s

il~ some o r a l l of' thcm, Nhzt o c c u r s t o rile is thc. s h e e r

phys i - ca l t a s k o f r e a d i n g clnd cons ic ie r ing t h ~ n i , an(! t h e n

c a r r y i n g o u t t h e directions C A S t o tht; n o t i c u o f o p p o s i t i o n

<ind f u r t l l c r by 15 Id ovc ,nbc r.

If my lL: trntd f r i e n d 1s g o i n g t c ) p l a c e f u r t h ~ r 1

v ~ l u ~ i i n u u s mi i t e r in l b ~ f o r t th: cou r t , j.t ~ ~ ~ o i l l d bc z p p r o p r i a t e 1

t h a t t hd n o t i c e o f o p p o s i t i o n drld furtl .1~:- s f f i d c ~ v i t which

t h e d e b t o r s e e k s t o f i l e ant s c r v e should bil f i l ~ d 2nd

s c r v c d by ~ ~ r h a y s 15 X o v ~ m ~ a r , 2 f u r t h t r seven d a y s a l lowed. I

P!ib HO!~CUTi:That i.s yclur ap , , l i . c : i t ion i s i t ? !

M.€t ~1!4 & : YLS. becausr. i h w e riot Ir1 o t n e r words, t h a t thc s c h e d u l e be -i,c'v:;ncc;.c?, by

a f u r t h h , r scvdn d:rzysi;, 1 :zrr spzaking sonLwhut i r l t h e d a r k

se(;n t h i s f u r t h t r n a t e r i ~ ~ l , b u t it

c t * r t a i ~ i ; y - - -

MR LOXIGuST3IN: It sounds f o r b i d d i n g b u t i t i.s n o t . Indeed , my

l c a r n ~ d f r i e n d and t h o s e i n s t r u c t i l g hiai ckn b t o l d v e r y

r e a d i l y ,is soon n s we l e a v e t h i s c o u r t \I; t o wh:t t h i s

!m*-~ter ia l i s , a l l of wh c h i s , o r ought t o be, i n ny l e a r n ~ d

f'rii n d g s i n s t r u c t i n g s o l i c i t o r q s o f f i c e , g i v e n t h e y wcre

a c t i n g i n t h e p r o c e e d i n g s t o which I have r e f e r r c d .

I n s o f a r LS t r a n s c r i p t i s conce rned t h t r e a r e

seven pages only , cnc t h c r e m e b - s i c a l l y two rzff idrzvi ts .

BWH/JDR/jd i4R &OEklXIJ STEIN

25       m ,I,,

Savage

H I S HONO R1 To go back on my e a r l i e r s t a t e m ~ n t , how 40 you sekk

to ttcnder t r . , n s c r i-;\t?

MkI L O ~ ' ~ l S T E j ' _ h : I t i s e v i d e n c e t h a t h;s been g i v e n or1 o a t h by t h s

d e b t o r .

HIS !;C)!!!C'LTR: T l i ~ r t , i s c : m u l t i t u d e o f : :u thor i ty th .? t c v i d c n c e t h a t h s s

b c ~ n g i v e n on o a t h i n s o i ~ ~ t o t h e r t r 2 n s ~ c t i i . n i s n o t

r ~ d i n i s s i b l e 2 s such, If you > r e s e e k i n g t;_, prove t h e

Lidml s s i o n rriade o u t ::lf c~:ul"L you W C L I ~ C : h:;ve t o drove i t b y

o r d i n a r y r u l e s of cvieencr, ; you j u s t c ~ n r i o t say, "ht:re i s

C-; t r m s c r i p t g i ,

>l& LOEI~4EnlLI"I'IX;: Yes, th:!t i s sv , I d( n o t scck t o s h r i n k from t h a t .

T t would b~ gut 311 t h c b:isis ~f ~ h W;LS s ~ i d ~ t o r c L d m i t t e d

by t ht c!dbtor i n the c o u r s e o f cross-cx: i ,ninnt iL)n i n o t h e r

; rocesd iiigs. Tc th:" t tx l e n t , the, p ~ t i t i ~ n i r i p c r c t l i t o r i s

~ n t i c i p ~ t i n g what t h e d e b t c r may o r nay n o t say and what,

form o f n o t i c e would b~ g i v e n - - -

EIIb iiON6UR: Am I r i g h t i n t h i n k i n g Mr K i a m w:zs n o t i n ~ L L L Supreme

c o u r t proceddi.ngs?

MR KI?IM: I 'hctt i s so, your Ilonour. : y learned f r i e n d .;aid t h e

gent l t rnan i n s t r u c t i . n g xnc was i n t h e p r e v i o u s p roceed ings .

I u n d e r s t a n d t h e o t h t r t h c gen t l e~ i i an i r l s t r u c t i n g ne was nL) t i n all

p roceed ings .

HIb H6;;IOUR: I do n c t want t~ t r y any o f t h o s e s u b s i d i z r y m a t t e r s ,

b u t I t h i n k i n view of what M r Locwenste in h 3 s s a i d t h a t I

s h o u l d re-c;&st t h e t i m 6 t a b l e as f a r 3s M r I L i r n m i s c ~ n c e r n c d ,

and i i r e c t t h ~ t any n c ~ t i c e o f o p p o s i t i c ) n on which hk p r o p o s e s

t o r t l y , and any a f f i d a v i t i n s u p p c ~ r t o f it, bc f i l e d and

s c r v e d by l\jovember 15' 1978 p l a i n l y t h a t n e e d s n ncw h e a r i n g

d a t e . E c r h a p s 2 1 Novemb~r w,,ulcl bi p o s s i b l e ; I rnention t h a t

f o r y s u r use , M r Loewenstcin. ' ~ h n t i s on t h e assumpt ion t h a t

your c l i e n t wants t h e c , a r l i t . s t p o s s i b l e h L a r i n g , and on t h ~

assumpti( , r i t h a t y o l ~ r c l i t ' n t w<juld s t i l l bc c o n t e n t w i t h t h e

s h o r t p c r i . . d f r 2ny answer ing a f f idczv i t S. An1 I r i g h t i n

t h i n k i n g t h a t ?

1"i LLOEWEPJ L'TEIF? : Ye S, your Hon,>ur.

HIS 11Ci\JOUiZ: I r e c a l l i n g t h c ; ; rde r I w i l l z d j c u r n t h e f u r t h e r h ~ a r i n g o f t h t p e t i t i o n ,

m ~ d e e : ~ r l i e r , t o lYovc,r?bcr 2 1 1978

n t 16.30, m(' any : ~ f f i d - l v i t s t c bi, f i l ~ d c,n b2h:ilf ( ~ f t h e

p , , t i t i c , n i n g c r e d i t o r i n answer t o t2.1~ tl,f r i d z v i t S cif t h c d e b t o r

t c > be f i l e d 2nd s e r v e d by E r i d a y 17 l\iovr,mbcr. A s I have

s a i d beforc, c o s t s 'ire res t - rved .

T h e r e i s n b t h i n g e l s e you w i s h t o ~ ( r t i d n ?

MR LOBTdEMSTEIN: I t ake i t t h a t y~;ur l b n o u r ' s d i r e c t i o n a s t o any

f u r t h e r	a f f i d a v i t	mater ia l	t o	be	r e l i e d on	i s now	d i r e c t i o n
l ?

HIS HONO'JR: The f i r s t s t e p i.s t h a t your c1.ient-s w i l l f i l e and serve

any f u r t h e r a f f i d n v i t s on which they r e l y by 5 p.m.

tomorrow.

MR LOEIdENSTEIN: I wonder if i n t h e circumstances we could have

t h e ex- t r :~ 24 lzours, a t l e s s t u n t i l noon on Friday, bearing

i n mind t h a t I ani now t o l d t h a t the s o l i c i t o r s a r e i n

Moorabbin.

HIS HONOUR:	Hsve you any ob jec t ion to t h a t , Mr Kimm?
MR KIMM:: No.
HIS HONOUR:	I w i l l amend the f i r s t d i r e c t i o n by de le t ing

It5 p ,n . tomorrowH and subs t i tu . t ing "12 noon'! on Friday,

3 November. The o the r da tes w i l l remain unchanged.

The court w i l l adjourn u n t i l tomorrow.

THE F r n T r n R K E M I N G OF 'THIS MATTER dRS ADJOURNED UCTTIL

TuESDAY 21 NOVI3MBER, 1978, AT 10.30 A.?I.

AT 11.30 A. M. THE: COURT AWOUlrtiiED U N T I L Tm FOLLOWING DAY

THUFISDAY, 2 NOVEMBER 1975, AT 10.30 A . M .

FW/ KM/ 1 d

Savage